Accepted Evelyn Isabelle Valentine's pk appeal

Discussion in 'Accepted/Denied Appeals' started by PADEX, Oct 15, 2019.

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  1. PADEX

    PADEX Proton

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    Steam Name: Padex
    Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:81811199

    Character Name: Evelyn Isabelle Valentine
    Member of Staff Who Banned Your Character: don't remember the steam name, but in the roster it was referred to as "Ammo Man"

    What Led To Your Character's Death?: According to a pm received by @Theplahunter , my character got Pkd for quote "182 inaction since you destroyed narcotic evidence and admitted to flushing it, as well as not reporting until we were already on the scene"

    Why Should Your Character Be Unbanned?: A bit of context first.
    My character along with three others was chilling inside an apartment. Then one of the other three decides to take out a package of cocaine, inciting the others to try it. Upon refusal, she then decides to snort it and still try to give it to the others. My character, in order to avoid for everyone to get in trouble, decides to take the package and run for the bathroom, in order to flush the drug out. The possessor, of course, tries to block her way, attempting to hit her with a mug but eventually fails, smashing the mug on the ground, so my character manages to lock herself into the bathroom and flush the drug out.

    Immiediately after, the possessor of the drug tries to break into the bathroom, but then eventually stops, acting calm trying to convince my character that she's not mad so she could get out and possibly get hurt. Although my character hears noises of struggle, so she opens the door, to see the aggressor trying to escape, but it's being held by one of the other people present. It was at that time everyone hears the cp's radio chatter nearby (basically at the corridor), so my character decides to yell for help, which immediately alerts the units, who come in the scene within a couple of seconds.


    182 inaction is failing to report immediately any crime starting from Anti civil activity level one (aka the yellow crimes). The reason my character did not use the request device was because she heard, along with the other characters involved, that the Cps were already near their apartment (Diordna room 4), specifically in the same corridor of their apartment. So logically, instead of wasting time taking the device out of her backpack, state her name, state her location and state the crime, she decides to yell for help, since the units are basically already there, which proved to be effective.

    As for the drug, 182- Inaction does not imply the disposal of potential evidence. Other than that, if she kept the substance she would have been charged with 69-Possession of resources, since, after the officers came, the culprit kept stating that she was drugged by the others in a some sort of setup. Having the contraband still in my character's hand would have solidified the culprit's statement.

    Date Of Occurrence:16/10/19
    Evidence: whatever input is bought forwards by other players.
    Other Players Involved: @Braňo♥ as Hellena, @Jerry_Dasher as Michelle Maclntosh, and the character Kaya Redford. Unfortunately, I do not remember the player's name
    Any Other Details: while reading the logs I noticed in the LOOC chat some Cps mentioning PK auths. Unfortunately I do not remember the context and the order of the logs doesn't help. If said officers would elaborate on these statements it would be much appreciated since it could be related to this application.

    Here are the logs in question:

    Evelyn Isabelle Valentine says "I took the package, and tried to go for the bathroom, but she took a mug and attempted to smash it onto me."
    Evelyn Isabelle Valentine says "Fortunately I managed to avoid the attack, so the mug fell on the floor and broke."
    [LOOC] C17:50.VICE-4: Just for information, if they actually did, they'd need PK auths on you
    [LOOC] C17:50.VICE-4: do not tell me OOC what happened
    [LOOC] C17:50.VICE-4: So I got no bias



    P.S. I'm writing this post on mobile, so I apologize in advance for any typos I might have not noticed.
     
    #1 PADEX, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  2. dallahan

    dallahan a bad memer
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  3. Verräterpackaging

    Verräterpackaging Happy dude from around the clinic! :D

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    Hello there! I am VICE-4! It's rather late, and I'll respond fully to this tomorrow, and read it carefully! I just want to make that clear real quick, since it's rather easy. Since I had no clue what happend in that apartment, IC nor OOC, I stated that for putting cocaine into one's coffee to make them PK'ed by CPs one would surely need PK Auth's. As you stated this situation, this wasn't the case, so you can ignore this comment, since it's not relevant in any way. We'll figure the rest out tomorrow, and I wish you a good night!
     
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  4. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    Hi, Union-6 here. We asked about the PK auths because if it WAS a setup you would need PK auths for Kaya to be PK executed by us, but it wasn't a setup so that doesn't matter.

    It's inaction because you did not IMMEDIATELY report said contraband, which is cocaine. Instead you locked yourself in a room, flushed it, and walked out despite being in safety. You did not report anything to us until we had already arrived, and admitted to flushing said cocaine before we showed up.

    Here you admit that you had time to call for civil protection, since we only showed up AFTER you were out of the bathroom and restraining the woman. Failing to report crimes such as drug usage and DESTROYING evidence of said drug usage. We also heard the yelling of Kaya first, and her yelling help, so you only yelling help after seems like it was just to cover your bases. I discussed it with Axid, and since you had time and safety to call for Civipro using a request device, but didn't, it was inaction.
     
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  5. PADEX

    PADEX Proton

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    Thanks for your reply! I appreciate your clarification on this matter. Have a good night!
     
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  6. PADEX

    PADEX Proton

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    And this brings us to the reason why I destroyed said evidence. To my eyes it was a disposal of something that would have surely made me get charged with possession of resources. My thought was that removing contraband from a criminal in a situation where she used it, potentially endangering other people, would have been a virtuous act as a loyalist, in a situation of emergency.

    Put it this way seems like I waited a considerate amount of time between my chance to report the drug and the arrival of the units. It really was just a matter of seconds.
     
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  7. Ammo Man

    Ammo Man Electron

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    We entered RB2 for a normal search, completely unaware of what was going on. I clamped so I was not directly at the scene.

    I ran the command once they were dead. That's as far as my involvement goes.
     
  8. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    You had enough time to lock the door, dump the drugs, and pin down Kaya, but not enough time to call it in using the very simple format we have? If you had called it in and explained who originally possessed it, it would not be 69. Either way, in this case since you were destroying said evidence to avoid a 69 charge, that's still 182. You say you destroyed it to 'remove contraband from a criminal situation' but just before you said you disposed of it to avoid a 69 charge.

    We didn't even search or inquire about cocaine or any other drugs, you admitted to us that you flushed it without any prompting.
     
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  9. PADEX

    PADEX Proton

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    I flushed the cocain to both remove the contraband from a criminal And to avoid a 69 charge.

    The officers did search for traces of cocaine in the bathroom. We used a /roll to determine if there were traces remaining or not (only for traces in the bathroom. About the possible traces on the table, the culprit roleplayed that there were no traces even though the character unpacked it and snorted it on it. I dont know if there was a particular reason why there were not supposed to be traces on the table. I think we will get clarification from the player themselves/logs)

    Unfortunately the /roll turned out to be unsuccessful so no traces in the bathroom were found.

    One last thing is that i did not pin down kaya, the others did
     
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  10. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    I was the unit that did that. But you admitted to flushing it, and Kaya had cocaine in her system, as tested by @Frede so we took that as a count on the 69 charge. And still, you flushed evidence, that you admitted to flushing, to avoid a charge. That's 182, because you did not report it until we had to ask you about it. And you did not call in to report it.
     
  11. PADEX

    PADEX Proton

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    That is in fact correct, because you were basically there. It's not that I wanted to keep it as a secret. If my character really wanted to commit inaction, she wouldnt have bothered telling the whole story, not saying anything about the drug at all.

    I believe we both gave our motivations clearly and I think we should pause the argument for now, since I'm noticing we're repeating the same things over and over again. I think tomorrow we will continue with a fresher mind.

    It's also very late for me so I'm a bit tired. I'll talk to you tomorrow! :smiley:
     
  12. ☮☮☮

    ☮☮☮ Birdy

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    Alright, I'm Kaya Redford in this situation.

    I'm in support of unpking this character, I feel shitty as I knew the risks roleplaying this but did not intend to take any other characters down with me. I also believe there are a few aspects which would've made it difficult for her to report the situation.

    1. The situation was quite intense, Kaya was flipping her lid and trying to cause harm to Evelyn and she was panicking at the time. Even though the door was locked Kaya was still banging on it attempting to break-in.

    2. The Civil Protection were there pretty quickly, between all the commotion, taking time to react etc she didn't really have the chance to request the officers- It wasn't long after she flushed the drugs that the Civil Protection were outside the door. Which caused the yells for help.

    3. She technically did report Kaya, she could have easily said that we were having a minor argument and a scuffle and probably left with a 415- but instead, she decided to speak up against someone who before-hand she was on good terms with, to me that's some Union-loyalist type shit, not inaction.

    The reason I did this was because she placed the bag on the table, but picked it up and used her apartment keys to gather some out rather than say snorting a line directly off the table.

    Anywaay yeah, you need anything else let me know. Goodluck
     
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  13. Verräterpackaging

    Verräterpackaging Happy dude from around the clinic! :D

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    Thank you for your reply! I'll start right off with this.

    On what you have stated that you were friends before this incident, and I can agree that if she wouldn't have snitched, there would only apply a 415 charge. That makes it for me clear she did act on behalf of the Union, or her own survival since she may thought she could die not reporting it.






    Here it get's stated that Evelyn was still put under pressure. I've seen the /me's as we were in the lower floors, and tho you would be able to hear our footsteps, vocoders or anything else what identifies us as Civil Protection. Yelling for help seems for me adequate, wouldn't have that happend.





    I have to agree to the speed we came there, as we heared the first help. It really was just a matter of seconds, but we didn't know how long the situation was already going on, as we saw you out of the bathroom.


    We have now two sides of this 182. Firstly, you did flush evidence to escape a 69 charge, wich you already stated.

    On the other hand, wouldn't you have spoken up, we would have issued a 415 and left again. Only your statement brought up the prosecution of the rest. This question is too big to answer for just a small CP like me, so I'll leave it to the Staff. But still, I do not like PKs, and I wish you luck and hope that you'll get your char back! Have a good day!
     
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  14. Tzula

    Tzula Molecule

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    I remember a while ago either early Helix or late cw that, you have to had ooc intent in actually committing the crime and what I'm reading, she didnt have intent but also told you guys the truth about it? If she had told you a lie and still flushed it, you'd be lying to Overwatch forces which.. Is a big no no but she told the truth and didnt lie and during cw, there was a similar incident and they got unpked due to fessing up about it in the same way you can stay pked if you try to escape an officer after being prosecuted for another crime which is why people dont do anything against officers in such a scenario as I mentioned before.


    Good luck to everyone involved, I just wanted to bring that up.
     
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  15. BonkAndAHalf

    BonkAndAHalf String

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    So, I've had a read through the comments and the initial appeal and I wanted to give some input of my own.

    DISCLAIMER: I was not there at the scene. I'm going off purely what has been stated here and what I have been told. Also: I have not intended this to be an attack in any way, shape or form. If it at all seems like that, I apologise in advance.

    From what I have analysed from reading the comments, I can tell there is some stuff that doesnt match up, is contradictive or otherwise doesn't quite make sense.

    First of all, It has been stated by Theplahunter (UNION-6) that it was inaction as she didn't initially report the drugs. If she had failed to report it at all this would be a valid point. However as Evelyn admitted to flushing the drugs, this means she cant be charged for inaction because she confessed and therefore reported it. She in fact did the Union a service by acting out of instinct. Realistcally speaking, if you saw someone with illegal substances sitting feet away it is unlikely you would straight away think "Oh that person has illegal stuff. Better get my request device out and make it blindlingly obvious that I'm reporting them". Not only is this unrealistc as you would be you would be trapped in the moment, you would also allow the other party to react by either: letting them take the request device from you, jump at you and attack, take out some form of weapon and threaten to kill you or attempt to escape. In conclusion, as she acted out of pure instinct, she did the best possible thing by flushing the drugs and doing the Union a service.

    Secondly, UNION-6 states: "You had enough time to lock the door, dump the drugs, and pin down Kaya, but not enough time to call it in using the very simple format we have?". From this, I can tell UNION-6 is possibly focusing entirely on what did happen compared to what could have happened. Had Evelyn (or any other in the room at the time) reported it, Kaya would have been given a very easy opportunity to leg it, potentially framing Evelyn and whoever else was in there. This can also go for pinning down Kaya, had they not have done that she could have escaped. Now for dumping the drugs. As I have previously stated, Evelyn did the best possible thing and flushed them. Had she not have done so, she could have potentially been done for pocession (I'm not gonna bother quoting codes cause I'm no CP expert).

    Do feel free to quote and respond to this. I am open for debate as long as no unnecessary drama is caused.

    Also good luck! :smiley:
     
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  16. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    The entire deal is she was safe at the time, she was LOCKED in the bathroom, with a door and wall in the way of her being attacked if she requested. She would not be in danger, especially since there was already somebody else restraining Kaya. She could of left the drugs locked in the bathroom, but we don't go off 'what if THIS happened' we go off what actually -did- happen.

    182 INACTION | Failure to immediately report any observed crimes at anti-civil activity level one or greater.

    Is what inaction states, and they did not immediately report any observed crimes. We go off of what did happen, not what might of happened. She snitched herself out by saying she flushed cocaine down the toilet, when it could of been a simple 415 charge. That is not my fault, she admitted to the crime. I am focusing on what did happen, because we do not go off hypotheticals and what if situations. We go off of what did happen. I could be in s2k and killed, and I won't get out of it by going 'Well I could of done THIS and I would of been fine' because that's not what I did.

    The laws of Hl2 are not supposed to be fair, Evelyn got put in a rock and a hard place and made the mistake of admitting they witnessed a crime and did not report it, and in fact, destroyed evidence. You can say you perceive it as a loyalist act, but at the end of the day it isn't. They were locked in a room, and had time to request, but instead flushed the drugs and went back out to fight the person.

    She ALSO could of not said anything and have been fine, but she didn't, by your logic.

    Also yes, there is a rule involving not posting unless you are directly involved, or have evidence regarding the situation/were there.
     
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  17. nash

    nash slimaaconroy-approved
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    hey friend.

    unfortunately, due to 'timescale' if you would like to call it that - the situation did play out a lot quicker icly than it seems oocly, she didn't have any particular time to report it whatsoever due to trying to hide from someone trying to attack her as well as trying to flush the drugs down the toilet.

    i saw the situation, it did play out really slowly. that's all i'll say, i don't feel evelyn should remain pk'd.
     
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  18. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    She locked herself in a room, to her own admittance. But instead of staying in said locked room and reporting it, she let herself out willingly and engaged again, despite being safe. She removed herself from a safe area where she could report, back into a dangerous situation.
     
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  19. nash

    nash slimaaconroy-approved
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    i'd say she was in that bathroom for no more than a good... ten to fifteen seconds before you cops arrived at the building.
    again i don't feel she had enough time to report it, expectedly so under the stress a char would feel from being attacked.
     
  20. Theplahunter

    Theplahunter Electron
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    Well when we arrived she WASN'T in the bathroom, she was helping hold down Kaya. As you can see in the earlier post, she specifically stated Kaya stopped banging on the door, so she unlocked it and stepped out.
     
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