Suggestion Resistance Cache's

[Pyromaniac]

Suggestion:
Two potential methods of implementation:

1. Resupplying Vendors
Add a function for Vendors to resupply automatically every X period with Y amount of Z items (at max filling up to max stock). And give rebels vendor(s) for basic things or communal storage (like Foreign Assets CP side)

Potentially add flag(s) or a faction (with classes), or modify the citizen faction to have classes to restrict access to these vendors to trusted individuals. (Perhaps split into three categories for example leader, co-leader and member so that everyone can grab basic ammo, co-leads can grab semi-important things such as grenades and leadership guns directly to distribute.)

Important to note with the faction route, this will not represent any form of actual faction as much as it displays trust/levdl affiliation with the rebel side of war.

Spoiler: Moved to seperate suggestion

https://nebulous.cloud/threads/resistance-crates.60089/

2. Resistance Crates
Add an entity that can be placed in various locations around the map that can randomply appear/spawn a crate. This crate can have basic supplies. Upon removal of all items the crate will 'break' and despawn allowing another to spawn in due time.

Potentially restrict Overwatch's ability to open these.

Perhaps add a flag that allows you to open these crates as you 'know the proper way to do so without destroying shit'

Perhaps only have them appear/be openable during certain time-frames to prevent dead-hour farming at non-peak times.

Potentially add variations of both
Why it would be worth adding:

N1 is worth adding as it makes the supply situation of both factions modifiable and allows it to simulate the state of supply lines without much OOC headache. This is supposed to be a life line when staff is busy and/or events are few.

Spoiler: Moved to seperate suggestion

https://nebulous.cloud/threads/resistance-crates.60089/

N2 is worth adding since it promotes and automates scavenging somewhat and assuming it is without restriction gives everyone an ability to acquire basic gear.

Necessary content: Most likely Gary's sanity.

 

['77 East]

Potentially restrict Overwatch's ability to open these.

Perhaps add a flag that allows you to open these crates as you 'know the proper way to do so without destroying shit'

hard disagree
if people want to circumvent the cell system it should have risks beyond needing to walk somewhere

crates found should be rigged with traps & openable by cops/transhumans

 

[Pyromaniac]

hard disagree
if people want to circumvent the cell system it should have risks beyond needing to walk somewhere

crates found should be rigged with traps & openable by cops/transhumans

As for the first approach to the idea of adding more functions to Vendors and adding a way so that it can be restricted to certain 'trusted' Rebels?

I should probably add that while not mentioned in the suggestion, that for both ideas I imagined it is primarily basic items such as basic Weapons (Mp7s, Mp5s and/or USPMs or Scrap/Pipe weapons) and associated ammo.

Additionally with a community stockpile (Akin to Foreign Assets in CP) allowing the mass-storage of (certain) weapons that might be found in excess if personal/group storage is filled. Of-course this would allow other person's/groups access to the weapon(s) you put in.

The first idea has the benefit of alleviating some pressure off of the staff team for basic-level resupplies and allows every Map to have a modifiable supply situation.

As for the faction and/or classes method, it was primarily intended to give a rebel variation of an RL to the extend of handing out supplies following whatever rules at the time.

----

Seeing as the disagreement (per what I can tell) is based primarily on N1, I'll split up into two seperate suggestions as I should've done in the beginning tbf.

 

[Deleted member 38]

1. Resupplying Vendors

i didnt read past this point

 

[Valtorix]

i didnt read past this point

My ⭐ Immersion ⭐

 

[Deleted member 38]

My ⭐ Immersion ⭐

it aint even about immersion

i just have an endless hatred for vendors.

 

[Pyromaniac]

it aint even about immersion

i just have an endless hatred for vendors.

Perhaps read further and look past the hatred, I often times hear or see Rebels complaining regarding combat due to a bad supply situation even in rarer skirmishes between the two Factions and even as far as planned and organized Skirmishes.

Staff might forget, is too busy or for other reasons does not supply rebels with from what I gather even basic things like 4.6 or 9x19. When you look at the base level of a supply system its easily modifiable on paper (Gary will have to answer about in practice) and will at-least ensure a baseline.

The amount of these guns/ammo need not be infinite, it can be if needed but it can also be limited to 2 Mp7s and 4 boxes of ammo a day if made modifiable. Hell, it probably can even be made to be just crafting materials.

This doesnt seek to destroy RP or give rebs infinite AKs, at best it seeks to provide a baseline supply situation, imagine a weapon's cache from terrorists.

 

['77 East]

----

Seeing as the disagreement (per what I can tell) is based primarily on N1, I'll split up into two seperate suggestions as I should've done in the beginning tbf.

I just completely disagree with vendors at all, given the cell system exists.

What is the point of requiring people to tow the line (or source their gear elsewhere) if you can just walk around and grab medium-tier gear off a vendor.

If it was garbage makarovs for everyone, sure. Something so that people have a TINY amount of self-defense.
But I completely disagree for anything else.

 

[Pyromaniac]

I just completely disagree with vendors at all, given the cell system exists.

What is the point of requiring people to tow the line (or source their gear elsewhere) if you can just walk around and grab medium-tier gear off a vendor.

If it was garbage makarovs for everyone, sure. Something so that people have a TINY amount of self-defense.
But I completely disagree for anything else.

The secondary perhaps-es for that seek exactly this. A flag or faction with classes that allows vendors to be restricted to certain individuals such as Leadership, Co-Leadership and/or Cell Member --

Combined with OOC rules on which Vendor is whose and how to use them means that it is both easier to manage (only a trusted amount of individuals can access certain vendors), conglomorate supplies in a communal storage like Foreign Assets on cop-side without needing bazillion boxes and ensure some baseline can be maintained with limited to no staff oversight.

Ofc I dont expect these vendors to *give* Rebels any more AKs than they put into it, hell I dont event want that. Its not meant to substitute re-supply events for bigger guns but just make sure that the Rebellion isnt entirely, 100% reliant on staff.

I imagined these vendors would either give low-tier guns/supplies (Scrap SMG, Pipe Pistol) and associated ammo, with the trust they can achieve a higher weapon than CPs or provide weapons on par with Cops

 

[Pyromaniac]

Now that I've finished my exam and find myself with time again I'm going to go into extreme detail as to my perspective on this suggestion and why I proposed it. Additionally adding a disclaimer that I have not played Rebel-side significantly this iteration outside of my brief tenure on Vort and a small character I decided to play that was merely passing through that day.

Observations
Firstly the obvious, I often hear or see complaints after skirmishes or combat of any size involving the rebellion as a larger whole. These complaints usually primarily stem to equipment availability, I don't have a gun, I don't have ammo etc. Hell, one time when I was aiding an event that required armed Rebels I couldn't find any that weren't occupied and if it wasn't for the Quarter-master being around I would've likely had to walk away or had the event repurposed for CPs/Overwatch.

Thinking about this issue, I decided to first look at the systems in play as they are from what I know. Rebels usually have one, or more, central characters that either provide a slow but steady supply of guns when around or have resupply events every so often. Along with the cell system providing supplies to cells.

On paper, assuming it is run perfectly that system should work. The issue is that it actively requires staff involvement, which either takes away from their time to moderate or play themselves or takes away from an event staff's time to make events for the server (which increase player enjoyment).

So combining these observations, I tried to look at the way the server runs as a system of flows. Supplies come in from outside the world (Spawned in), are distributed to players and might exit the world following map changes, restarts, clean-up, death PKs or capture by the opposing side.

The Solution and Why Vendors
If you look at vendors from a purely mechanical standpoint, they contain items and have certain amounts of them (ranging from 0 all the way to infinity depending on the settings). When one 'buys' an item, they remove the item from the Vendor's stock decreasing its amount by 1 for every item. Vendors also have a list of items that you can 'sell' to them, doing so will put the item into the Vendor's stock or will not work if it has the max amount.

When you think about it, a vendor is some sort of storage container with the ability to price items to tokens hence the name vendor. It already has a lot of customizability so why not add to it to help take pressure away from staff?

From outside the world, just as with weekly supply events, items come in periodically. Taking this concept and automating it would be allowing vendors to automatically restock X amount of Y items every Z time up until a limit such as the max capacity of the vendor. This would simulate the support the group has from the outside world or off-screen scavengers and the like. This should be modifiable just like the max stock of the vendor so that it can be changed depending on current needs or balanced.

Of course, this shouldn't be a constant supply of AS VALs but it can also just be ammo or shitty weapons. This would, in theory, maintain a baseline on the server of armament supply and allow staff only to need to focus on stronger weapons for special events and allow this to be used as a way for the outcome of events to have effects on the opposing faction, a loss of stock or resupply rate or alternatively the outcome of maps to have effects in a similar vain.

To ensure that not every player suddenly finds themselves armed to the teeth, the vendor's carrying these important items shouldn't be accessible by everyone and as such add a (set of) class(es) for non-staff rebels to have that can be used to lock access to the vendor to these rebels, such as group leaders, ensures it is both not abused but also hopefully more prevalent and easier to find and distribute guns, ammo or other supplies among those who are deemed to deserve it in the rebellion.

Resupply events for high-end guns or ammo can still and in my opinion should still happen, but this is to make sure that the moment staff gets busy, has a burnout or for any other reason doesn't maintain the resupply events that there is an automated system ensuring that the rebel's ability to protect themselves isn't immediately destroyed following the next engagement(s).

Finally, adding a vendor-type-cache for Central/Communal Storage between cells will allow excess weapons to be distributed by those who need it. Private containers can still be kept but even at their max size can only hold so many weapons or supplies but with the added benefit that the other cell(s) cant take it from you.

 

['77 East]

ensure some baseline can be maintained with limited to no staff oversight.

it's still dodgy

vendors just encourage the lack of oversight, I know if they were implemented people would be sneaking supplies off to non-cells because they believe that staff "don't care" enough for actual measures.

rifles, shotguns, etc should not be distributed for this reason. non-revolver pistols? sure.

 

[Pyromaniac]

it's still dodgy

vendors just encourage the lack of oversight, I know if they were implemented people would be sneaking supplies off to non-cells because they believe that staff "don't care" enough for actual measures.

rifles, shotguns, etc should not be distributed for this reason. non-revolver pistols? sure.

Alright, I see a misconception in your thinking by looking at it through the glove of 'Infinite guns!'.

Assume the following situation:

A vendor with this system is set up for the decided base weapon of scrap SMGs and the associated ammo. It has been decided that ammo needs to maintain it's value and as such will remain restricted to the trusted people of the resistance to distribute.

The initial and max storage of the scrap SMGs is set up at 25, a resupply is set up at 5 per week (perhaps a range of values could be useful) to a limit of 20.

One of those who has access to it somehow decided to grab one of these guns and take more for his 5 buddies not in the cell. Now the amount of guns in storage is 20, additionally, the rest of the let's say 7 cell members arm themselves leaving 13 guns in the storage.

Through bad luck, lack of skill or some other factor, all of these guns are lost and once again handed over. Leaving about 1 gun in storage before the resupply hits kicking it back up to 6 in storage.

Staff decides they want to discourage shooting a bit, so they change the resupply value to 2 up to a maximum of 5 with a capacity of the same 25. The owners of the vendor can no longer afford to maintain such engagements without risking themselves (unless they are having luck in the battle).
______
What's the difference in this system and the current system staff-maintained and requiring resupply events except for the lack of direct-staff requirement beyond simplistic oversight?

If rebels store some of these guns in their container, they're being smart with supplies and making sure to store extra/what they need either on their person so they can maintain the fight even if the supply lines get hit a bit.

Of course, eventually, if there is no engagement for a while, the supply lines could close up a bit or the excess might be donated to the local refugees or friends to protect themselves or fight. You're the resistance, Humanity vs the traitors. Even a refugee with a gun can be of help.


It is not required or expected for vendors to be infinite supplies.

The only thing I can add after writing this perhaps adds an external, not shown supply for each side that can be edited by staff that this resupply system takes from until it is empty. At minimum this will decrease the amount of effort staff has to do (instead of spending 1-2 hours giving guns out, they can hop on and spent 5-10 minutes changing the faction-supply)

E: Even now, a friend with access to the containers or supply events can take the supplies from storage and hand them to a friend. Leaving a similar trace in the logs as with these vendors.

 

['77 East]

Alright, I see a misconception in your thinking by looking at it through the glove of 'Infinite guns!'.

It is not a misconception of "vendors shouldn't give infinite guns".

It's a statement that any vendor system shouldn't bypass the cell distribution system, simple as that.

If rebels store some of these guns in their container, they're being smart with supplies and making sure to store extra/what they need either on their person so they can maintain the fight even if the supply lines get hit a bit.

Or the guns get withdrawn from the vendor by greedy people, dumped in a communal container and used by who-knows-what, even individuals who are supposed to be cut off from basic forms of supply.

It doesn't make sense, period, for anything but the most BASIC of weapons.
An SMG is not basic. A Makarov you need to use two to four shots on someone's head is basic.

Also, all the talk of locking things behind ranks is an absolute coding nightmare. I think it would be best if everyone was able to get the same gear - a shitty pistol, the ammo for it, and perhaps a limited supply of bandages.

E: Even now, a friend with access to the containers or supply events can take the supplies from storage and hand them to a friend. Leaving a similar trace in the logs as with these vendors.

See the problem, here?

Free reign to hand over gear to people banned from the cell resupply system.

"But the guns are shit!!!" you cry - doesn't matter, easy access to shit submachineguns and human wave tactics will prevail, promoting it further. Any distributed firearms should be weak pistols and nothing further, basic self-defense that means zerg-rushing is suicidal unless you truly have the sheer numbers for it.

You want extra?

Don't fuck up and lose your contract, go deal with events and the risk that comes with them, go sell people as human slaves to the skinhead cabal. Hell, form a 10-man squad and just ambush a 4-cop scouting party with your puny pistols.

There are options.

 

[Pyromaniac]

greedy people

Then, with my flags. You do not give these people the flags. Same-way we expect Civil Protection whitelist holders not to give their ammo or vendor items to anyone and especially RLs.

See the problem, here?

Free reign to hand over gear to people banned from the cell resupply system.

"But the guns are shit!!!" you cry - doesn't matter, easy access to shit submachineguns and human wave tactics will prevail, promoting it further. Any distributed firearms should be weak pistols and nothing further, basic self-defense that means zerg-rushing is suicidal unless you truly have the sheer numbers for it.

You want extra?

Don't fuck up and lose your contract, go deal with events and the risk that comes with them, go sell people as human slaves to the skinhead cabal. Hell, form a 10-man squad and just ambush a 4-cop scouting party with your puny pistols.

There are options.

The quote you reacted to said simply that it's an issue even present in the current system. I don't see how that is 'a problem' to see if I cannot imagine a fix for it except the minimum requirement of moderation with who has access to these flows of supply and a bare-minimum of trust to be put into those who do have access to it. They fuck up? take the class or flag.

You seem to be argueing more with me on what these vendors should have and provide, and less with whether or not the actual vendor system is a bad idea. I'll re-iterate:

Its not meant to substitute re-supply events for bigger guns but just make sure that the Rebellion isnt entirely, 100% reliant on staff.

I don't decide what is considered basic, that is up to the staff team if this implemented.
Just because you and I disagree on what is basic doesn't mean the system is shit. I want it modifiable for this purpose among others, per vendor.

As for the hassle of making classes, it searches for something contained in the name currently. If you cannot make a seperate flag for it or making a seperate faction is not worth it, you could per my impression of the codebase at a check for citizen characters with "QM." ahead of their name or some other like combination that gives them a class that can be check-marked on the vendor. Just like CP 50, 75, RL, Phase 1, Phase 2, Ordinal, Phase 3, Normal Scanner, Synth Scanner, Disp-AI etc.

 

[Bio Junior]

i just have an endless hatred for vendors.

Man just offered you a solution, would you rather continue without supplies or have some sort way to fight off the "endless legions" of OTAs and cops? It's not flawless but it's better than steamrolling through you guys all the time or see that people don't flag on because "no ammo, no armor" which is understandable, which this would fix.

I get it, you'd rather get the shit through events and meaningful roleplay, but that's overloading the event makers, not to mention they'd run out of creativity and just do "do this simple task, get 1000x ammo" type of event.

 

[FreeSpy]

station 7 was probably the best point for the rebels simply because we (lambda) still had the ability to do supply stations where we upgraded things and dished out some good equipment, and we were not overloaded with the ammo/armor scrap requests. no one complained because they could take a hit and it was fine. it is literally the same for cops where they get the ability to purchase ammo and armor but guns come from a RL who just does the job of a QM

i don't see the issue with normalizing that for rebels too.

 

[STUCK IN A CAKE]

station 7 was probably the best point for the rebels simply because we (lambda) still had the ability to do supply stations where we upgraded things and dished out some good equipment, and we were not overloaded with the ammo/armor scrap requests. no one complained because they could take a hit and it was fine. it is literally the same for cops where they get the ability to purchase ammo and armor but guns come from a RL who just does the job of a QM

i don't see the issue with normalizing that for rebels too.

Honestly having a Lambda Operator state "Here's the standard equipment entitled to a rebel", and then have a Quartermaster NPC that sells that basic equipment to players wouldn't be the worst idea. They dish out equipment like very basic ammo (9x19/9x18), Armour Scraps, and other 'low tier' equipment that isn't going to break the economy. Then have player driven event characters dish out the 'meatier' equipment. Crafters and Scavengers fill the gap.

 

[Pyromaniac]

Honestly having a Lambda Operator state "Here's the standard equipment entitled to a rebel", and then have a Quartermaster NPC that sells that basic equipment to players wouldn't be the worst idea. They dish out equipment like very basic ammo (9x19/9x18), Armour Scraps, and other 'low tier' equipment that isn't going to break the economy. Then have player driven event characters dish out the 'meatier' equipment. Crafters and Scavengers fill the gap.

Exactly what I hoped for, just allows for a baseline to exist so that rebels arent entirely powerless as often as they seemingly are.

 

[Deleted member 38]

would you rather continue without supplies

this

vendors are not the solution and they never will be

 

[Andrew]

supply issues are solved by grouping players together in 4-10 people parties and then using the cell resupply system for themselves to get geared
everyone wins, u even get to pick what gear u want