Completed Robert 'Bobby' Lockswod appeal

Discussion in 'Accepted/Denied Appeals' started by Medic, Jun 1, 2019.

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  1. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    Steam Name: Medic
    Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:25355984

    Character Name: Robert Lockswod
    Member of Staff Who Banned Your Character: @Havok

    What Led To Your Character's Death?: Getting identified by the attacked unit

    Why Should Your Character Be Unbanned?: I baited the lone unit into the alley back of W4 by running. When he came my other accomplice, lying in ambush behind a dumpster, hit him from behind with a pipe, back of the head. Unit somehow resisted this hit and threw his stunstick at the piped attacker. I grabbed the loose stunstick and hit the unit in the head to knock him out. The unit meanwhile radioed being attacked. We grabbed the weaponry and ran away.

    Instead of trying to flee completely, we sat down at the end of the alley to pretend random loiters. We had dumped the weapons to a safe place. We were tied, found empty for contrabands, moved to nexus for interrogation.

    Afterwards we got interrogated. I didn't confess anything which would put me or my accomplice at grounds for death. The attacked unit identified me and I was amputated and PK.

    I don't think the attacked unit would be able to identify me as he would be piped as soon as he passed the dumpster. I had my back turned the whole time he spent chasing. The alley was dark as well. He spent his next turn tossing his stunstick at the piped ambusher, crouched on the ground. Next he radioed for help. After that he got knocked out.

    He wouldn't be able to identify me since he only saw my back when I was baiting him. And he would get bludgeoned as soon as they walked past the dumpster. Afterwards the unit was struggling on the ground, facing the piped attacker on ground, he would be looking towards his feet most likely. He spent his last turn radioing, he would be unable to get a good look on my character's face as I was to the side of him. Not to mention the head concussion which could mess with vision or memory.

    Date Of Occurrence: 31/05/19 for UK

    Evidence: I don't have the whole log, admins can access them. The whole ordeal took much longer than it should have, the attacking unit stalled. Four turns of fighting took more than half an hour

    Other Players Involved: @Berke as the piped ambusher, @Appetite Ruining Kebab as the ambushed unit, rest of the active CP force running there without regards to the timescale (though they walked away to let us escape)

    There also was another civilian witnessing the ordeal but I think they did not reveal any information to CP. I don't know their forum name

    Any Other Details: Head concussion can result in dizziness, dazing, light to severe vision loss, not to mention the memory loss. And to the back of head it will most likely cause temporary loss of consciousness
     
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  2. .:BurningFox:.

    .:BurningFox:. Professional cynic

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    Hey, I was the witness - the only information I gave was hair colour/lack there-of and a general rough height; my character was unable to get much else, and was rightfully kind of shaken up by the sudden SWARM of cops at the area. I don't have anything else to add other than that, so I'll leave the rest to the others involved.
     
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  3. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    Yo, attacked unit here.

    First off, thanks for remaining relatively civil throughout the whole thing. There are plenty of people out there who would've reacted far worse during the LOOC fest. And sorry for inadvertently stalling the situation, I know how much that can be an issue when RPing a mug and I realize it sets a bad example for the rest of the CP faction.

    Now for the part where I explain shit:

    As soon as you started hitting my character, you triggered their suit's trauma sensor, which gives a notification to every unit in the city that I recieved some kind of damage, along with where that damage was taken in. Because I managed to get an 11-99 call out, Dispatch automatically locked the forcefields leading out of your district, and the officers searched & and imprisoned everyone within that particular district at the time, which were just you two and the woman.

    At the very minimum, it isn't hard to connect the dots and identify your character based on reasonable inference, since he was the only non-bald male standing at 6'0 (all of these being traits I can ascertain from behind), and given how fast dispatch acted on the forcefields, the possibility of your characters having slipped by them is basically a non-consideration. Not to mention that we found the pistol laying around while you two were being searched, which is basically proof that you were planning to dump it and blend in for the time being, further leading us to suspect the unarmed people in the district (again, just you three, not a big sample size at all.)

    That's the gist of why I think the PK should stick.

    Here are some of the minor details I want to address:

    Wrong. One of my first /mes involving the baton clearly stated that I threw it blindly at your partner, which means I wasn't looking at the person I was attacking.

    I roleplayed getting hit on the side of the head, falling towards the wall and being put mostly out of commission for further fighting. I'm not a medical expert nor will I claim to know exactly what happens when each side of the head is hit, but I feel that I have done my best to debilitate my character to the degree typically expected from an attack like this.


    Lastly, I would think that if you were about to be smacked into unconsciousness by a glowing baton, you would naturally look up at the attacker & their weapon.

    EDIT: in response to the "alleway dark" argument, here's a screenshot of my unit's perspective:

    [​IMG]

    Your partner was off to my left, and you were infront of me, standing in the well-lit part of the alleway. Getting a good look at your face isn't out of the question at all.


    TL;DR, there are plenty of facts that add up around the event to make the case (immediate containment of the district, stashed pistol being found in the district, low sample size of suspects, identification of hair, height and gender) that even without facial recognition, there would be solid cause to amputate you.
     
    #3 Appetite Ruining Kebab, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  4. Señor Jaggles

    Señor Jaggles Zasshu Impaler Extraordinaire
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    To begin with:

    A pipe hit on a helmet produces some sort of "head inside a bell" effect. The hit will not kill you thanks to the helmet but it will most likely daze or stun you. That doesn't mean you can't swing your hands and your stunstick around like you're a crazy monkey attacked by bees of course, but nothing precise. I guess that's what you did.

    Aside from that, well, you don't need to see a face to recognize someone. If you spend good time running after someone and you see them a few short minutes later you will most likely recognize them even if you haven't seen their face, just thanks to the haircut, skin colour, height, stuff being worn, among many other things.


    On top of all that:
    I think this sums everything up. The only good reason to get face ID is to BOL and tag anti-citizen which will trigger cameras. Additionally, I must say that even if you were wearing a balaclava (in the hypothetical case that everyone in the city had to wear one and they were legal), out of all the people wearing the balaclavas he would've recognised you.


    To put the OP to analysis:
    Getting piped does not mean he will get knocked out. Even the civilians without a helmet don't get knocked out by the bare stunstick when their head is hit (which is where the electricity variable takes place). The pipe would've certainly dazed him, and that was roleplayed. Doesn't make him blind or deny the fact that you were standing under the light according to the evidence presented.

    Now here I lack a bit of perspective. The unit gets hit on the side of their head as they pass, meaning they fall forward or sideways, not backwards, but on their face/side. If that is so, how are they facing the pipe attacker (@Berke, who should be behind him/on his side to do this) and not you? To add onto this, I doubt he would've had any memory issues considering it's not like his head got cracked, and the vision should be fine considering he got hit on the side of his head and not the front (had that been the case, his sight would've been fucked by the crushed mask on his face). As per the "I was on the side of him" I'll need the perspective I asked about before so I can see how you all were positioned. Regardless, as I said, he does not necessarily need to see your face.

    Four turns times three is twelve /mes so that's quite the thing. The unit admitted to the stalling inadvertedly which I will also need a statement about what it means exactly @Appetite Ruining Kebab.
     
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  5. Berke

    Berke literally the most irrelevant operator

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    ill post my response tomorrow if thats okay by you, i gotta go sleep now
     
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  6. Señor Jaggles

    Señor Jaggles Zasshu Impaler Extraordinaire
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    you go rest mate I'm just glad you're back
     
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  7. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    Basically, we got into a LOOC debate about whether or not the first pipe hit should have knocked my unit out (and settled that it didn't), then about whether or not my unit would be able to call for backup and block a stun-baton aimed for their face with an arm at the same time (and settled that I should only be able to do one of these things, so I chose calling for backup), and then by the time we resolved all this, the area was surrounded by CPs and scanners who were waiting for timescale to end, and we then had to work out how we would roleplay out the S2K side of the things once they got away.

    I think maybe it could have gone smoother if I stayed off of LOOC and just went with the roleplay, although the pipe-KO does seem a bit suspect.


    As for whether the units' OOC presence made a difference in the end - I'm gonna have to say no. Once the forcefields were locked, the units had all the time in the world to arrive and search the area.
     
    #7 Appetite Ruining Kebab, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  8. Manio

    Manio Mostly Sleepy

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    Hi there, I was the one who was questioning you later. The fact that you and your friend were reported for assaulting a unit, and you were the only ones in IZ7 means that there were really high odds of you doing that. Furthermore, after a trauma sensor got triggered, we locked every possible way in or out via forcefields so no one could get out, or get inside. That made our task much easier, you were the only two males present in said location. With that, I've assumed that at least one of you did the attack for sure. That landed on your character since JURY-5 recognized you. The other one got beaten up almost to death, but he was let alive due to "lack" of evidence.

    Anyway, that's all, good luck with your appeal!
     
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  9. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    this is all very interesting to read but i don't see how it changes the end result - merely the trauma report coming from my unit (according to havok during the LOOC exchange) is enough to put the district on lockdown. from there, we could easily narrow down the suspects in the same manner

    sure, maybe my character wouldn't directly see bobby trying to turn around and wrestle the stunstick, but we would still infer that they coordinated with a partner to take down a cop based on how efficiently they pulled it off (really, in that world does a cop chase a runner into an alley, and a man with a pipe just happens to be standing behind a dumpster, in an industrial district, waiting for his lucky break?)

    and even if that doesn't hold up, he would still be charged with inaction for being present at the scene and not reporting it when the trauma report alone couldn't identify precisely what was going on from dispatch's perspective
     
    #9 Appetite Ruining Kebab, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  10. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    We were detained in a position with no LOS to the crime scene
     
  11. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    i would still be able to pick you out when asked to identify who i had seen at the crime scene. the other officers would conclude that since you (to my knowledge) made no effort to report it when found and searched, that you were willingly ignoring a crime that happened right next to you.
     
    #11 Appetite Ruining Kebab, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  12. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    We were detained in a position with no LOS to the crime scene so we couldn't have seen the assailants
     
  13. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    yes, but suppose what happens after my unit wakes up in the nexus - they're asked, "what happened, yo?" and I say, "I was chasing a dude into an alley and then i blacked out", and they say, "which dude?", i point you out, they ask you why you said nothing of the event earlier, and no matter what you tell them, they now have you for inaction. not to mention that a lot of them would suspect you for being an accomplice on the side, too - they just wouldn't have 100% evidence for that particular crime. that doesn't mean they wouldn't be motivated to find a reason to end you irregardless, given how these things are usually set up intentionally.
     
  14. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    That's kinda the main argument, I believe you wouldn't be able to
     
  15. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    but we're just repeating an earlier argument at that point, one which jaggles already responded to in his first post:

     
  16. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    Its what I believe and it will be accepted or rejected, why are you continuing this argument anyway? You don't lose anything and to my knowledge they don't give union points for getting rebs pked
     
  17. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    if you think offering my view on the PK and why it would be logically consistent to stick equates to an ulterior motive, i don't think i should be the one to be asked why i'm continuing this discussion

    believing what you believe is your prerogative but if you're not willing to present arguments for it you're not going to be very convincing to appeal management
     
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  18. Señor Jaggles

    Señor Jaggles Zasshu Impaler Extraordinaire
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    Deleted the whole helmet deal okay I'll take the middle ground since people who haven't used a simple mass produced hardhat in their whole life apparently know more than someone who has. And yes, CP helmets are mass produced and are pretty much similar to hard hats in terms of materials and resistance. They're not ballistic helmets (and such has been proven more times than I can count) but they definitely will save a life when it comes to blunt force. With this I'm not saying it's impossible to knock out a CP, but just like someone with a hardhat you'll need to hit more than once.

    As per the shock transfer and all of these technical terms, I'm really not in the mood nor have time to explain how momentum works and why the fact the head and the helmet have some space inbetween means the force of the metal pipe won't transfer fully to the head. However, to give a short explanation to my decision, had the helmet been touching the head, the force of the hit would've transfered fully onto the skull, but in this case there's a space between the helmet and the head, meaning in order to reach the skull the force has to first push the helmet hard enough. This first contact will apply force on the unit, which will be pushed in his enterity (or at least, the top half) in the direction of the force (the helmet is connected to the suit which also helps distabilizing the moving unit), meaning that when the pipe actually reaches the head (or the helmet does or whatever [or even the shockwave? how HARD did that person hit is he Hulk?]) the speed of the pipe will already be reduced or compensated by the movement of the unit and the helmet absorption (which isn't much, but it's enough) effectively reducing the force and ultimately the damage received.

    The middle ground is the unit gets hit and stunned enough to be incapacitated (as the player RPed it, swinged its baton around in defense but ultimately fell) and there's no memory loss. This said, uninvolved people, stop posting please.

    Now, to return my attention to what is truly important and can be discussed because I'm not willing to go tell the big science community to change the laws of physics just because you guys want to change the outcome of the appeal and the way force momentum works.

    If Bobby is ahead and you get hit from behind logic says there's a second attacker.

    You don't need LOS if a unit comes in after someone, you hear shit going on and the unit doesn't return. Regardless the whole inaction thing is a bit of a huge "what-if" so don't focus on it.

    To point out or not to point out, that is the question.

    As I already say when you see someone you recognise them if you see them again, no need to see the face. The whole face recognition issue comes with scanners and cameras since Dispatch basically needs to have a face recorded to BOL tag it and send locational pings and so on.

    Hell, you recognise your friends when you see them from behind, or even someone you've just seen and need to follow because they dropped their purse or whatever and you have to give it back to them.

    If he had said that he recognised you like one day or so ago or more then I would've been skeptical.

    I'm not going to allow this in my appeal I'm sorry. He's got to defend his case just like you have to defend yours. They don't give rebel points for surviving PK appeals do they? You could possibly argue many things but this is one I won't allow you to, because it's directly offensive to the other party.

    I'm waiting for @Berke's input to be able to see more into the situation. To ensure we're efficient, @Medic and @Appetite Ruining Kebab, if you want, reply with a post telling the story of the situation from your POV. Do not reply to eachother, do not base yourselves on the posts from the other, just tell me the story from your POV. It helps in these messy situations.
     
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  19. Appetite Ruining Kebab

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    there isn't much to tell

    i was alone in the plaza,
    i saw a guy run, chased after him,
    he lead me into the alleway next to warehouse 3,
    he slowed down, and then i got smacked by a pipe, and fell into the wall
    i tossed my baton blindly at the attacker shortly before having it taken by the initial baiter, then tapped into the headset and called an 11-99 (not the voiceline, just the code)
    i was KOd by my own stunstick shortly after

    cue them running away from the scene, the district being locked, cops searching them as well as the area and finding the pistol they took from me (but not the stunstick)

    my character wakes up in a nexus bed and is immediately asked to identify the suspects out of the 3 people that were in the district at the time - two of them were contained in a cell and one was being interrogated

    i point out the runner
    they dont give up their partner and die (although they admit they are friends with the bald guy and nothing more)
    i beat the other dude with a pipe and break some of his bones (for various reasons), though because he is unproven as an accomplice he is let go with his life intact

    my character gets deranked for walking themselves into that situation

    end
     
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  20. Medic

    Medic Proton

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    alright my pov:

    @Berke s character and mine decide to shotcop after some rp with a higher rebel, no firearm we'll do it pipey. Plan is that I'll bait he'll knock him out from behind, leave the loot on the crime scene, pretend we're simple bluesuits, collect loot hours later and profit

    @Appetite Ruining Kebab is the lucky cop who happens to be nearby

    I start running, @Appetite Ruining Kebab chases me with walking speed (I stopped when in the ambush site so he didn't bother running), would not see my face obviously, he closes on me @Berke hits him (don't remember the exact /me)

    @Appetite Ruining Kebab threw his stunstick at @Berke. Heavy OOC happens around here I think

    I grab the stunstick and knock @Appetite Ruining Kebab out

    We grab the loot, toss them over to a safe place, and pretend to be random citizens in the other side of street.

    We get detained, questioned, @Berke is released but @Appetite Ruining Kebab recognizes me and I get PK'ed the end
     
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