Denied Eddie Jay Westgrin's PK Appeal

[DormNes]

@Grryn (zoey) got tenative PK auths from @Nathant18 the first time that Ed ratted on her after she told the group, though we decided to maybe try go a different way with it. he continued to rat after this

yesterday the opportunity to kill Ed opportunistically presented itself. i /helped and got oversight from @Simman102 as described above. ed had commited various more of the acts explicitly definited as PKable in rules since the initial tenative auths- and admitted to several of these acts in the moments before the ambush.

i'm in touch with everyone on the ALF side, i can privately provide evidence as needed

This is tackled in my previous statement where I said "Zoey started off by telling lies to CPs about what contraband was whose, she started the entire issue by blatantly lying about people, which can be played IC, but it really boils down to "make a ton of shit up, blame randoms, get mad when people don't want to be blamed and then ask an admin for PK auths.

 

[Coldflame]

i think that a PK is pretty evidently justified in this case, and i dont really care to litigate every single aspect of every interaction i had with ed prior to the kill

if there are any points that staff want me to engage on i'm more than happy to, but i'm not going to do a point by point response

 

[fofa]

(I mean, you literally decapitated Ed and put him in a trash bag).

he never got decapitated, if you had even read the previous posts you'd know this

A beating could have sufficed before PKing him

at first, we didn't plan on killing you (as was said in the previous posts numerous times) - we wanted to intimidate you through other means but we later found out that you were being quite blatant and open about investigating us and ratting to civil protection, even going as far as to provide a random passer-by with this information. additionally, you'd assumed right off the bat that we're ALF and, i quote, 'the resistance group', which strengthened our need to have you killed even further as we had assumed you were spreading this information to civil protection and other people; putting all of our lives at risk

 

[constantdisplay]

Ah, cherry picking yes. I don't believe you should be able to criticize my points if you won't even read the entire thing.

its nearly 2000 words of pure unparagraphed text, most of which is you waffling about how your character would of survived the fight and baldness, please just split your paragraphs. for me it is genuinely impossible to read, thats not me being mean - i have shit eyesight and a bad attention span 🤷‍♀️

Given that YOU guys unnecessarily started this conflict, you should understand that you consistently bullied and targeted Ed even before he tore your posters down (The catalyst that dug this rabbit hole) for whatever reason. In fact, Zoey started off by telling lies to CPs about what contraband was whose, she started the entire issue by blatantly lying about people, which can be played IC, but it really boils down to "make a ton of shit up, blame randoms, get mad when people don't want to be blamed and then ask an admin for PK auths" That’s really low and kind of disingenuous to ask an admin for PK auths after putting a character at risk just because.

Additionally, I do not believe you took the proper steps to make this a PK, you gave me a singular warning, and then killed me when I was at your establishment causing no harm. A beating could have sufficed before PKing him, if it got to that point. It just feels in bad taste to mercilessly kill him when there was definitely other options on the table. It also most definitely robbed us of potentially more interesting RP. It feels as if there wasn't a real intention to roleplay out more than you guys being the DARK and GRITTY early-day bar rebels I feel (I mean, you literally decapitated Ed and put him in a trash bag).

those initial auths were only the first part of the pk - and everything else after is more relevant. me and lucian both talked to you ic, either together or 1:1. i told you specifically to stop making stuff up, lucian warned you in person - i feel like it was pretty obvious. guess we just did a good job ic of convincing you otherwise? going off your behavior, at every point it seemed like you continued to run your mouth and not stop talking about us to others or the cops. my character didnt want to kill anyone, but it seemed likely that youd run to the cops immediately. ive already said - this was a last resort, and neither of us were trying to be edgy. hell, i can send you the post-pk rp logs to show we didnt immediately start spouting one liners at your corpse

What? You tried to drag it out? You guys were trying to get it over quickly on an OOC level because of the whole "Oh what if someone walks in on us." So you rushed it and not only did you rush it, but you did a pretty lazy job at that.

should of clarified, i meant drag it out as "when we learned abt what happened with zoey" to "deciding to kill" - not the situation. but what do you expect here, honestly? was going on 10 minutes and we wanted to make sure we werent caught, and that we had an open window to dispose of the corpse. there was a cop and pa flagged, and we'd heard the fight they were having with the monster nearby

So... I defended myself?

you were on your knees with your hands behind your head - facing away from lucian. if anything you might of been able to dodge the first hit. not any of the others

You were upset that I didn't want my character to die instantaneously? In what a singular swing?

we obviously werent aiming for that, or we would of killed you much sooner. we wanted to let you rp it out, but when you immediately resorted to /me dodges it didnt seem like any of us were gonna get anything fulfilling out of it. simman offered you a death /me and you refused, i even vouched for you to get global ooc treatment (though it didnt happen). we're happy to do a redo if you want something better, but the outcomes not gonna change

Your intentions did not match your actions, clearly.

it was a 2 on 1 - both of us armed, and you on the floor. there was no powergaming here, other than some of our /me's maybe being a bit too direct. but it was clear you were going to lose, and you should of been p2l'ing appropriately

Correction: It didn't seem like I was going to die instantly, so you HAD to get your way.

again, it had nearly been 10 mins. we didnt know if it was still clear of cops and pa outside (after checking just before the start of the interaction). we couldnt risk you doing more /me dodges for another 10 mins. if we wanted to you to die immediately, we could of just done it straight away

 

[DormNes]

i think that a PK is pretty evidently justified in this case, and i dont really care to litigate every single aspect of every interaction i had with ed prior to the kill

if there are any points that staff want me to engage on i'm more than happy to, but i'm not going to do a point by point response

If you no longer care to defend yourself, if you no longer care to read what I have to say, if you no longer care to put thought into the situation. Then why do you care about replying just to say this? I feel like this should go without saying, but of course you think you're justified in this case cause you did it. I think admins should revert the situation if you no longer want to argue your case.

he never got decapitated, if you had even read the previous posts you'd know this.

Display said "You were just dismembered." there was a skull spawned where the trash bags were, so I do not believe you have the full story, I'd advise ensuring your facts are in order in the future. Either way, Tori said this "only post if you're involved or if you have evidence or information to add." you were not on the scene, and the information you've tried to add contradicts what others have said, and what was shown in the server.

we wanted to intimidate you through other means

Your attempts at intimidation fell flat considering how vague and cryptic they were.

you'd assumed right off the bat that we're ALF

You're not very discreet at being ALF, I'm sorry. You guys are sort of obvious in fact. However, I do want to apologize for name-dropping my killers. That was uncalled for.

putting all of our lives at risk

Your people put Ed's life at risk by shamelessly lying about him, as well as Jin.

 

[DormNes]

its nearl

I'm just gonna say, give me some time and ill respond. Uh thanks.

 

[fofa]

You're not very discreet at being ALF, I'm sorry. You guys are sort of obvious in fact. However, I do want to apologize for name-dropping my killers. That was uncalled for.

essentially anyone could be ALF and you'd assumed that it was us? i'd like to hear what thought went into this

Your attempts at intimidation fell flat considering how vague and cryptic they were.

Lucian Davies says "If I ever hear the fucking name Eddie Westgrin again, we will have a BIG problem."
Eddie Jay Westgrin whispers "It was me and me alone."
Eddie Jay Westgrin whispers "Sure Luc."
if this is cryptic and vague then you might have to pick up a book on reading comprehension

Your people put Ed's life at risk by shamelessly lying about him, as well as Jin.

that doesn't really change much, does it? you were still very open about investigating ALF for cops, even providing one of the ALF members with the information that you're investigating them

Display said "You were just dismembered." there was a skull spawned where the trash bags were, so I do not believe you have the full story, I'd advise ensuring your facts are in order in the future. Either way, Tori said this "only post if you're involved or if you have evidence or information to add." you were not on the scene, and the information you've tried to add contradicts what others have said, and what was shown in the server.

yes, my bad - i misread. he was, in fact, dismembered.

 

[Sil]

I'm just going to quote Sil's Băgăreţ PK appeal here "The injuries and long-lasting effects, that stuff's cool, but ending my RP and taking me out of the picture (especially after things really just started to get going for me) isn't really fun for anyone other than the few who really violently wanted me dead dead." to sum it up.

yoooo i got a mention in a pk appeal

best of luck with it man

 

[songbird2]

I think this thread is devolving into an argument about semantics and circumstances that are totally irrelevent. From all I can read here, there are two obvious PK rules that show this ambush as valid. I was personally present for one meeting between Eddie, Lucian and Will where he was indeed both threatened and offered threats. His claiming this didn't happen is false. There hasn't been any evidence to suggest the PK is invalid.

The past page+ of replies are, essentially, a player being unhappy with their IC death. It's been agreed and confirmed the ALF players are open to replaying the scene with the same outcome. That resolves the complaint about the death not feeling good to the player.

Meaning all that remains is for the admins to go over evidence and decide whether the PK is valid. Coldflame said this with a lot more brevity but I feel a need to re-iterate because all of this debating of circumstance drowning out the evidence posted by both Coldflame and Constantdisplay. That and any information to suggest the PK is invalid DormNes may have not posted yet is what matters to the actual verdict.

Please stop arguing over the irrelevent factors. In fact I still think anyone but the 3 players and admins shouldn't be here, even people with ALF characters who partook in the events some contend didn't happen. Our screenshots can be collected by admins as and when they're needed, otherwise nothing else is contributing productively to the thread. Even this post will probably be a shout in the void. And one I shouldn't have had to have made.


P.S. can we do less of the insulting people's RP? It's a little embarassing for adults to be squabbling about.

 

[Toriwarior30055]

I want to note that PK appeals are mostly about the reasoning behind your character’s death, not how it was carried out and the consequences after.

With precedent, people had some very unfair circumstances regarding their PKs but it still stuck due to the reasoning behind their deaths.

I understand you’re upset about how your character died, we can play out the scene again if all parties agree. But I just want to say your death is guaranteed considering you are unarmed and outnumbered.

 

[Simman102]

It's interesting to see that you walk around ratting on everybody and putting them at PK risk with such ease, yet throw such a fit when they strike back.

Some people are built and wired differently, an example being pain tolerance, some MMA fighters can eat headshots all day without going down, which is an inherent bonus that a person cannot train for.

I'm gonna say the quiet part out loud: you're full of shit. You're genuinely tripping if you think anybody can tank a slam with a metal bat to their head due to an 'inherent bonus'. Your skull is cracked, bro. You're dying, you ain't dodging shit.

it makes me wonder if my attackers intentionally spammed attacks knowing full well that I couldn't react.

No, they 'spammed' attacks because you were on the ground, 1v2, getting whacked to death and you were still dodging hits coming from above. Surprised they didn't just s2k or try to powergame earlier.

Is this not a risk they're willing to take by murdering a man in the back of their publicly available bar? I mean, that's just poor staffing on your part, no offense. Disallowing me from realistically RPing a combat scene where death is likely? If they wanted to mitigate risk factors, they would have taken him elsewhere.

Where the fuck is this entitlement coming from? No, man, they're not expected to take unnecessary OOC risk because you're 'sensing vibrations with your bald head'.

There must be some massive cultural dissonance here if you're actually expecting them to take on the responsibility of the absurdity of timescale on themselves just because they're trying to kill you (to save their own lives, from what I understand).

You messed up in every way possible. You kept ratting, you got death threats, you still kept ratting, then you got yourself into a closed room with people who you've been ratting on. Like, I don't even know what to tell you. I'd pull the "learning experience" spiel but you're trying to push back so hard, I can't tell if you're genuinely struggling with the loss of a character or if you're just this delusional.

 

[DormNes]

Just gonna leave another note that I am still writing about a bunch of shit. And it keeps getting layered on by others. Just saying it out loud so people are aware. I swear I'm gonna get a grey hair from this.

 

[DormNes]

Alright I'm done responding to anything about the roleplay specifically. Arguing about it isn't gonna get me nowhere other than another fifty paragraphs. I'm just gonna give something I should have a long time ago and that's two things. My best and why I know that this PK is invalid.

I know this PK is invalid and from the Character PK Criteria, I can say that. I am first going to preface this as to why I harped on how the death was handled and that was to paint a picture of how unsportsmanlike and rushed these people think about how they roleplay. It is that mentality which drives their reason for Ed to be PKed and at the same time barely care about the entire thing cause to them, it was just another body to the meat grinder that is most HL2RP servers.


So as I said before, I know this PK to be invalid from one simple statement. "We strongly encourage keeping PKs as a last resort for all players. This applies to all sides of the server. Consider your fellow players and aim for creative resolutions to conflict." I was never taken in for consideration, nor was it their last resort as they say, nor was it a creative resolution. You cannot tell me that these guys didn't have another option or that they never that they had a chance to try something to deter Ed from doing what he was doing. A simple masked beating of Ed would have had him stopped but, rather than do that, they escalated things right at the end rather than over the course of the days. I wasn't considered, how I felt like the story coulda gone, how the narrative could have unweaved. That is gone. The solution was death. When there were a number of options that could have been taken that was both fulfilling to the players without ending one's story because a weak and boring reason as Being a Rat. I know what the Criteria say about being a rat but I would to point to a word that is in that sentence. And it is the word May. "However, we can outline the most common and general reasons that may put your character at risk of a PK." It's not shall, it's not will. It's May. And that is a very important word to this whole thing. Ed didn't have to die. Ed could have been taken hostage, Ed could have been kidnapped. Ed could have been questioned further. But they wanted to rush the roleplay and rush they did. I cannot imagine how these guys would do if they were in my shoes considering how fast that kill was. All of 5 minutes. 7 at most. It was horrible. And trying to get a pity prize of getting to relive it but with slightly better roleplay which should have been the first time is... I spit at it.

The last part of the criteria I would like to quote is this, "all PKs must be proportionate and follow the concept of 'Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth'. They must serve a purpose. Major, unwarranted escalations in conflict resulting in character death." Ed never escalated things. It was always them, they were always escalating things. They tried to get Ed beat. They tried to get Ed arrested. They tried to get Dutch's Diner shut down. They tried to threaten Ed. Ed was always reacting to these things, sometimes not greatly but you cannot tell me that what Ed did was as bad as them. Everything he did was the same thing he did to them and even then by the end, he stopped escalating things. And they tried to just push him into doing it again by harassing him which to be honest, it feels more like bad faith roleplay trying to guide the situation into Ed doing something that leads into him dying. Especially if you consider how honest Ed was towards them. There was never a moment he lied. But they're gonna disregard that so they can keep accusing Ed of shit. If this is how they want to act about a PK, nonchalant and unable to pay attention or provide an adequate reason as to the why other than, he was a rat and that might get them killed when, if you kill him, then there's a most definite chance you will. I will not reiterate what I said on that matter. There wasn't any thought put into the PK other than we want to kill someone who ratted. It isn't very conductive to the roleplay environment and disregards all the measures to put into the criteria to make a death feel like it was supposed to be. And no matter their intentions, how this was done was awful.

I may not get Ed back, I may have had to watch people make fun of me over and over again in the discord server and telling me there ain't no way. But I know I have tried and done my best and no one can take that away from me.

 

[A. Vaher]

If u guys dont get the reference
here




also why is every murder in hl2rp a courtcase?
perhaps we should quit murder if we wish not become lawyers

My Criminal Justice classes are finally coming in handy!

 

[constantdisplay]

I was never taken in for consideration, nor was it their last resort as they say, nor was it a creative resolution. You cannot tell me that these guys didn't have another option or that they never that they had a chance to try something to deter Ed from doing what he was doing.

at no point did it seem like you, ic'ly or ooc'ly - would respond to being beat in a good faith way and not get us killed immediately. ed never shut his mouth once, thats on you. and based on the fact that ed assumed everyone who talks to will or lucian is ALF (meta or no) it could of easily compromised everything

When there were a number of options that could have been taken that was both fulfilling to the players without ending one's story because a weak and boring reason as Being a Rat. I know what the Criteria say about being a rat but I would to point to a word that is in that sentence. And it is the word May. "However, we can outline the most common and general reasons that may put your character at risk of a PK." It's not shall, it's not will. It's May. And that is a very important word to this whole thing. Ed didn't have to die. Ed could have been taken hostage, Ed could have been kidnapped. Ed could have been questioned further. But they wanted to rush the roleplay and rush they did. I cannot imagine how these guys would do if they were in my shoes considering how fast that kill was. All of 5 minutes. 7 at most. It was horrible. And trying to get a pity prize of getting to relive it but with slightly better roleplay which should have been the first time is... I spit at it.

Ed never escalated things. It was always them, they were always escalating things. They tried to get Ed beat. They tried to get Ed arrested. They tried to get Dutch's Diner shut down. They tried to threaten Ed. Ed was always reacting to these things, sometimes not greatly but you cannot tell me that what Ed did was as bad as them. Everything he did was the same thing he did to them and even then by the end, he stopped escalating things. And they tried to just push him into doing it again by harassing him which to be honest, it feels more like bad faith roleplay trying to guide the situation into Ed doing something that leads into him dying. Especially if you consider how honest Ed was towards them. There was never a moment he lied. But they're gonna disregard that so they can keep accusing Ed of shit.

sorry but this is just you lying at this point. how are the things you admitted to us not escalating the situation? most of what we did was in response to you. ive already posted logs of one of the meetings earlier on in the thread

 

[Coldflame]

even if the escalation was pretty much one sided (it wasn't and you know it), you ratted in a way that explicitly justified the PK. you could probably argue that ed had auths on will/luc, but that's not how the cookie crumbled.

this isn't about punishing anyone ooc or 'taking ed away from you', you put the ALF's back against the wall and they defended themselves from being sold out and killed

 

[DormNes]

at no point did it seem like you, ic'ly or ooc'ly - would respond to being beat in a good faith way and not get us killed immediately. ed never shut his mouth once, thats on you. and based on the fact that ed assumed everyone who talks to will or lucian is ALF (meta or no) it could of easily compromised everything

You could have asked OOCly. It wouldn't have been the first time that me and the opposing side have thrown ideas around together but because you guys never bothered and assumed I wouldn't react in any other way than ratting. Also I had no reason to not rat when all I received was empty threats for the most part. If you backed up your threat beforehand, then yes, Ed would have taken it more seriously and put his head down for a while.

sorry but this is just you lying at this point. how are the things you admitted to us not escalating the situation? most of what we did was in response to you. ive already posted logs of one of the meetings earlier on in the thread

even if the escalation was pretty much one sided (it wasn't and you know it), you ratted in a way that explicitly justified the PK. you could probably argue that ed had auths on will/luc, but that's not how the cookie crumbled.

this isn't about punishing anyone ooc or 'taking ed away from you', you put the ALF's back against the wall and they defended themselves from being sold out and killed

Everything Ed did was in response to you guys. Zoey tries to get Ed beat, Ed gets Zoey beat in return. That's equal escalation. ALF tries to pin Ed on the ALF thing which could have gotten him killed or beat. So Ed in anger takes down some posters which is not as bad as what you guys tried to do. But Will in return tries to shut down the diner using fake CS notices which in comparison to what Ed did wasn't equal escalation. It was overblown. Then Dutch tries to de-escalate the situation. Ed goes there to just confront them and try to just get them to lay off because he doesn't like how they tried to go after Dutch. They tried to gaslight him but he stands his ground because to them they are just punks. The meeting ends with the agreement with both sides agreeing to not fuck with each other. Ed did his part and didn't do anything because that's what they agreed on. Lucian randomly decides to be stupid and kept on harassing Ed over something that isn't real. And decides Ed's lying when time and time again Ed has been completely honest with them and has never tried to go behind their backs about this shit that he is doing.

Then, Ed goes to the bar to just have a beer and Lucian invites him for a talk. Which is the first time Lucian has actually tried to de-escalate anything that was anything other than "what do you want?" like it was during the meeting. But instead it was just a way for Ed to get killed. And then we just had to rush the questioning, and when he did answer their question if he talked to the cops. Lucian just decides to kill Ed. Lucian put no more thought into it. What else Ed could have said to the cops, what would happen if he disappeared? What would the consqu- Sorry, no, we don't want to get caught because of someone walking in so let's just wrap this up before we get caught. That's the entire roleplay. Rushed to get to the kill within the first few days, rushed to have that kill happened by being stupid for no reason. Rushed to not get interrupted so you don't get caught even though if this is a public bar, it should be expected for that to happen and it's on you for not picking a better spot. And then 20 minutes after the kill, you guys left before anyone could investigate anything though if you didn't, it'd probably be a quick PK. Not that it won't be if this appeal gets denied.

Also when did I say "you guys are taking Ed away." I just said I may not get Ed back cause this appeal might be denied but that doesn't matter as much cause I pushed to try and argue my case in the best way I could.

Anyways, I'm kind of done speaking on this whole thing. It was always gonna be an uphill battle where I had to fight off like 3-5 people but I tried and you know what, as I said. No one can take that away from. I put down my reason for the PK being invalid and people can say being a rat would defientely get you killed but I know for a fact that the wording is may. If they wanna ignore it. Good for them. But uh. Yeah. I'm good. I'm done. Whatever happens next happens.

 

[Toriwarior30055]

Based on what I've read so far, it's clear that Ed's death falls within the PK criteria. This is regardless of how the fight was conducted and any feelings regarding it, that's not a matter relevant to this specific appeal.

Ed reported the activity and location of the ALF to the Cops/PA which falls under the PK criteria. This is because doing so, also puts those ALF members at PK risk as their activities, if properly exposed and prosecuted, will result in their PKs as well.

There was a personal feud, a player-made conflict between Ed and the ALF members that kept escalating in a vicious cycle until it ended up in one of the characters was permanently killed. It should be noted that the PK criteria aren't one-sided in this situation and that if Ed had somehow killed any of those involved in the feud against him, they would've been PK'd too.

This appeal is Denied.

If you want clarification on PKs and PK criteria, feel free to start a forum convo with me or send me a discord DM.