PK Rule Discussion - risk to character

[Eviction Notice]

posting here to get a wider opinion base rather than just the CP-side of the community, thoughts on the above?
(thread referenced: https://nebulous.cloud/threads/pk-appeal-2.60390/)​

 

[Rabid]

The difficulty is more around the fact that, by nature, you need to have NLR's in actual conflict or things taper off and nobody does anything and people are using that to NLR away any and all hostilities, even when NLR's are only supposed to erase the situation that directly led to you dying (usually the firefight itself).

If I, say, PK'd my commander or whatever I shouldn't be able to run out and NLR myself to void them finding out who did it. That's not how the NLR rules are meant to work, to say nothing of the fact you'd be gaming the system by not resetting yourself entirely and instead only pruning the negative bits.

 

[MaXenzie]

The difficulty is more around the fact that, by nature, you need to have NLR's in actual conflict or things taper off and nobody does anything and people are using that to NLR away any and all hostilities, even when NLR's are only supposed to erase the situation that directly led to you dying (usually the firefight itself).

If I, say, PK'd my commander or whatever I shouldn't be able to run out and NLR myself to void that. That's not how the NLR rules are meant to work, to say nothing of the fact you'd be gaming the system by not resetting yourself entirely and instead only pruning the negative bits.

aye aye

basically;
if you don't have some kind of statute of limitations for PKs, then you're effectively playing an ironman server, ESPECIALLY when it's faction v faction or the likes

"you attacked the combine 2 weeks ago" shouldn't be a PK criteria, because now no one wants to fight the combine

there's the in-the-moment risk of "if i die doing this then i can get PK'd," and a lot of people can rationalize that and go "well its only 15 minutes of risk, the odds of me dying are relatively slim"
then there's "if i do this i am permanently under threat of PK," which far far less people are willing to do

 

[Simman102]

In every other roleplay community I've had contact with, the ruleset always defined something along the lines of "No Value of Life" rules, whether it be GTA, Arma, SS13, or even other Gmod servers. Pulling a gun on somebody who's already aiming at you is probably the quickest way to land yourself a warn/jail/ban/whateverotherpunishment on even DarkRP servers, which somehow end up having a higher standard of FearRP enforcement than we have right now.

The PK Appeal team has been making it abundantly clear, since asheville, that it is nigh-impossible for a rebel player to be PK'd by the Combine. And this sentiment is... fine, actually. On a server with two inherently hostile factions, it may not be the best idea to end a character's story because of a death which is simply part of the gamemode.

What I do not understand is the fact things like pulling a gun-- empty or not-- on eight people surrounding you is somehow okay. Whether it be Combine, bandits, or whatever other sentient group, this negligence of a character's own life is simply ridiculous. Such extreme situations should be reviewed regardless of the factions involved. The NLR system is frequently abused, as self-admitted by some, whether in the aforementioned (no, you can't investigate me because I've been dying left and right. seriously?) or in situations where people undertake the task of going around the map defenseless, sometimes even in plain clothes, to relay the position of the enemy over a radio - a suicidal task which they are willing to perform only because the sole possible consequnce is getting shot down for fiteen minutes.

The way these matters are currently handled severely detracts from the value of any confrontations and the integrity of storytelling - no matter whether the choice is slapping somebody's wrist or straight up shooting them in the face, they can freely ignore it.

 

[MaXenzie]

imo if you have a gun and someone is aiming a gun at you, you're showcasing you value your life more by withdrawing your gun and using it

every gas station robbery cctv footage I've seen, the store clerk draws their gun second, but still puts the robber down

if i have the choice between putting my fate entirely in someone's hands, and they are already threatening my life with a gun
OR
having the chance to kill them

I'm taking the option that lets me fight back

 

[FreeSpy]

The NLR system is frequently abused, as self-admitted by some, whether in the aforementioned (no, you can't investigate me because I've been dying left and right. seriously?) or in situations where people undertake the task of going around the map defenseless, sometimes even in plain clothes, to relay the position of the enemy over a radio - a suicidal task which they are willing to perform only because the sole possible consequnce is getting shot down for fiteen minutes.

Yeah, this is true.

It's an interesting task to try and fix every loophole imagineable. My perspective is figuring out if this person was killed in a valid manner with a valid reason, and it's broken down as such.

Is the kill itself and the way it was executed valid? Okay. Is the reason valid? Okay. That's the two base questions I ask myself when I look at a pk appeal. I try not to delve too much into the NLR issues as, quite frankly, I have no control over that.

As much as I will say PK appeals have no precedent people will try and run it like a courthouse, with precedents and whatnot. so I try to remain outside of that shitshow. This is why a lot of lonewolf cases have been reverted, because most of them haven't really been... solid.

The NLR issue is not really my reign, and I am completely detached from most of these situations, hell I barely get on anymore because I don't have the ability or time.

imo if you have a gun and someone is aiming a gun at you, you're showcasing you value your life more by withdrawing your gun and using it

every gas station robbery cctv footage I've seen, the store clerk draws their gun second, but still puts the robber down

if i have the choice between putting my fate entirely in someone's hands, and they are already threatening my life with a gun
OR
having the chance to kill them

I'm taking the option that lets me fight back

In my eyes someone trying to fight back is what'll happen realistically in any situation, especially against a group like the combine, and more specifically in a time where everyone knows what happens if you resist. When everyone's declared a resistor, by simple association, and you're targetted, it makes sense


This specific appeal was handled in the way it was because I can understand the idea of wanting to create an RP scenario, which is why I left those tidbits at the end of it, to try and help those that actually want to do that, and give them that ability.

 

[MaXenzie]

In my eyes someone trying to fight back is what'll happen realistically in any situation, especially against a group like the combine, and more specifically in a time where everyone knows what happens if you resist. When everyone's declared a resistor, by simple association, and you're targetted, it makes sense


This specific appeal was handled in the way it was because I can understand the idea of wanting to create an RP scenario, which is why I left those tidbits at the end of it, to try and help those that actually want to do that, and give them that ability.

100%, ESPECIALLY with the combine

in any non-combine character's head, getting caught by the combine is guaranteed certain death (or a fate worse than death for many)

you literally lose nothing by fighting back as hard and fast as you can
worst case scenario, you die quickly
best case scenario, you don't die at all

compare to cooperating with the combine, which could lead to being tortured and stalkerized over the course of agonizing months

 

[FreeSpy]

100%, ESPECIALLY with the combine

in any non-combine character's head, getting caught by the combine is guaranteed certain death (or a fate worse than death for many)

you literally lose nothing by fighting back as hard and fast as you can

from both an ic and ooc perspective

IC you know what'll happen

OOC you get captured you have the choice to just nlr but in the end you could always have your shit stolen

 

[Simman102]

imo if you have a gun and someone is aiming a gun at you, you're showcasing you value your life more by withdrawing your gun and using it

every gas station robbery cctv footage I've seen, the store clerk draws their gun second, but still puts the robber down

if i have the choice between putting my fate entirely in someone's hands, and they are already threatening my life with a gun
OR
having the chance to kill them

I'm taking the option that lets me fight back

While I don't think this is a very solid argument (what about every gas station robbery cctv footage you haven't seen? is there perhaps a reason the ones that get published are the one where the clerk wins?), one-on-one duels and other dubious/ambigious situations aren't what I was referring to.
I was referring to people carelessly approaching overwhelming odds - drawing a gun 1v8 or facing the risk of being caught solo, without means to defend oneself, by an entire patrol of enemy forces.

 

[MaXenzie]

While I don't think this is a very solid argument (what about every gas station robbery cctv footage you haven't seen? is there perhaps a reason the ones that get published are the one where the clerk wins?), one-on-one duels and other dubious/ambigious situations aren't what I was referring to.
I was referring to people carelessly approaching overwhelming odds - drawing a gun 1v8 or facing the risk of being caught solo, without means to defend oneself, by an entire patrol of enemy forces.

even if im outnumbered 8 to 1 by the genocidal alien squad that, in my mind, want to turn me into a limbless mindless husk of a human being to help construct their death machines

I'm going down swinging

 

[Simman102]

even if im outnumbered 8 to 1 by the genocidal alien squad that, in my mind, want to turn me into a limbless mindless husk of a human being to help construct their death machines

I'm going down swinging

That's fine, that's your choice, but why should be a single character have the ability to pull this off multiple times (when not a result of other combat - I do want to make it clear that I'm not referring to deaths as a result/derivative of s2k)?
There is no integrity to the story of said character anymore if it's allowed to happen with no actual bearing.
"Oh, man, this is the seventh time somebody in this village committed suicide by cop. What the fuck"

 

[MaXenzie]

That's fine, that's your choice, but why should be a single character have the ability to pull this off multiple times (when not a result of other combat - I do want to make it clear that I'm not referring to deaths as a result/derivative of s2k)?
There is no integrity to the story of said character anymore if it's allowed to happen with no actual bearing.
"Oh, man, this is the seventh time somebody in this village committed suicide by cop. What the fuck"

i mean my opinion is that getting outnumbered 8 to 1 just shouldn't be happening, it's not narratively fulfilling

you are hand-feeding people last stand moments and then getting upset that they're opting to go down in a blaze of glory

its like the uruks asking why the kingdom of Men tried fighting at helm's deep when it was clearly going to be an uruk victory

 

[Rabid]

I think there comes a point where fairness has to trump the ability for people to repeatedly play the odds if they don't actually suffer if it fails.

If you get to go out shooting in every scenario and nobody get captured, what stops cops (or rebels really bc the reverse is fair game too in theory) just shooting everyone the second they have them dead-to-rights?

There was a big fuss made once about cops being able to surrender but I can imagine the backlash had those cops tried to 'rambo' and basically escape capture - and thus RP - via NLR by going out shooting.

 

[Simman102]

you are hand-feeding people last stand moments and then getting upset that they're opting to go down in a blaze of glory

It's not really a last stand moment when it's not a result of combat in the first place, no?

its like the uruks asking why the kingdom of Men tried fighting at helm's deep when it was clearly going to be an uruk victory

But I'm not talking about large scale fights

what stops cops (or rebels really bc the reverse is fair game too in theory) just shooting everyone the second they have them dead-to-rights?

There was a big fuss made once about cops being able to surrender but I can imagine the backlash had those cops tried to 'rambo' and basically escape capture - and thus RP - via NLR by going out shooting.

This happens pretty consistently and I'm fine with it, actually. The capture ruleset was written before the server launched and in my opinion it ended up being poorly integrated with the gameplay itself. I don't fault anyone for not wanting to be captured as a result of combat, it's just not a very good experience and that's ok.
What I'm talking about is people being confronted outside of combat and facing impossible odds with no care because they know nothing will happen to them, rather than adopting a "maybe I can get out of this somehow?" mindset - offer to be an informant, sell the frequency, agree to perform some minor sabotage, offer some rare supplies, etc.

 

[MaXenzie]

I think there comes a point where fairness has to trump the ability for people to repeatedly play the odds if they don't actually suffer if it fails.

If you get to go out shooting in every scenario and nobody get captured, what stops cops (or rebels really bc the reverse is fair game too in theory) just shooting everyone the second they have them dead-to-rights?

There was a big fuss made once about cops being able to surrender but I can imagine the backlash had those cops tried to 'rambo' and basically escape capture - and thus RP - via NLR by going out shooting.

life could be dream if surrendering was ever a preferable choice than dying, both IC and OOC

but opting to die is the better choice in both regards, and slapping a PK on that puts people in no-win scenarios

i walked out of spawn on john doe and couldn't find the rebel base, so i wandered around aimlessly looking for it
and then a 6-man squad of CPs rocked up on me and almost shot me without RP, only stopping after missing their first volley and seeing i was unarmed
now john doe is a bit of a moron because he utterly lacks fear comprehension, so he played along with everything the combine did, answered all their questions truthfully, and ratted out several rebel members and plans because they'd asked nicely

they returned the favor by pushing him off a cliff to his death

from a IC sense, any rational person would rather die quickly and relatively painlessly while taking down as many enemies as possible, because the alternative is torture and/or a more painful, drawn out death
this applies to both CPs and rebels presently
CPs get tortured, their throats slit, literally eaten by some of the more extreme rebels
rebels get turned into stalkers

from a OOC sense, its better to just eat the NLR than go through what is effectively pointless, wasted roleplay that will still end in an NLR, or for some reason, a PK in the case of stalkerization.
no idea why you get punished for cooperating

 

[Rabid]

from a IC sense, any rational person would rather die quickly and relatively painlessly while taking down as many enemies as possible, because the alternative is torture and/or a more painful, drawn out death

This is very true, yeah.

I can agree with @Simman102 though that something has to be tweaked slightly so people have incentive to not just suicide-by-the-other-guys for a painless NLR when they're in an RP situation.

 

[Simman102]

and then a 6-man squad of CPs rocked up on me and almost shot me without RP, only stopping after missing their first volley and seeing i was unarmed
now john doe is a bit of a moron because he utterly lacks fear comprehension, so he played along with everything the combine did, answered all their questions truthfully, and ratted out several rebel members and plans because they'd asked nicely

they returned the favor by pushing him off a cliff to his death

You were a bit of an unfortunate case because you were an anomalous entity that we've been looking for since apocalypse. Had there been any what we nowadays call EX-DEV online, we would've likely handed you over for research, but since it was pretty late we just killed you (and told you how to reach the rebel base in LOOC).
Letting you go wasn't really an option - I tried to offer this to @A. Vaher's character who was a normal human, on the same map in exchange for... Anything, really, but their character was adamant on not cooperating with us. That's okay.

The truth is that no matter how much effort Combine players were to put in to create an engaging environment for their prisoners, time constraints + the necessity to traverse the map/take part in combat will not allow them to produce all-day entertainment for the captives. It will simply always be a better experience for a rebel to be in their natural, fully geared state, somewhere in the rebel territory, surrounded by other rebels and mini-/events.

Again, I'm not complaining about the way the capture system is handled, but rather the FearRP/PK criteria in non-combat situations.

 

[A. Vaher]

You were a bit of an unfortunate case because you were an anomalous entity that we've been looking for since apocalypse. Had there been any what we nowadays call EX-DEV online, we would've likely handed you over for research, but since it was pretty late we just killed you (and told you how to reach the rebel base in LOOC).
Letting you go wasn't really an option - I tried to offer this to @A. Vaher's character who was a normal human, on the same map in exchange for... Anything, really, but their character was adamant on not cooperating with us. That's okay.

The truth is that no matter how much effort Combine players were to put in to create an engaging environment for their prisoners, time constraints + the necessity to traverse the map/take part in combat will not allow them to produce all-day entertainment for the captives. It will simply always be a better experience for a rebel to be in their natural, fully geared state, somewhere in the rebel territory, surrounded by other rebels and mini-/events.

Again, I'm not complaining about the way the capture system is handled, but rather the FearRP/PK criteria in non-combat situations.

Fun bunker days

 

[MaXenzie]

This is very true, yeah.

I can agree with @Simman102 though that something has to be tweaked slightly so people have incentive to not just suicide-by-the-other-guys for a painless NLR when they're in an RP situation.

the choices as far as i see them are basically:

- make it so fighting back in these situations is a PK
i don't like this option because it genuinely puts people in no-win "fuck you, die" situations because they were unlucky and got caught by either a rebel or cop patrol. you either fight back (and risk a PK) or get captured (and risk a PK)

- apply a goodwill rule on surrendering characters
"but my character would brutally torture and rape CPs-" fuck off
"we need to stalkerize rebels" no you dont
if someone surrenders they should get given every benefit of the doubt
call it combat doctrine, give whatever IC justification you like

make it so surrendering is almost always a better move

 

[STUCK IN A CAKE]

The only way you can make captures worthwhile is if clear rules were written about what is expected (what is and isn't allowed to be confiscated). Remember, everyone's a main character here, we're not NPCs. Anyone who is captured should get the ability to escape after a couple hours/days due to poor infrastructure, bad weather, sabotage or vortal magic. Meaning they get to speak about their experience and 'live another day'.

You can still opt out, but selfless resisting nets a nice pk if you're constantly reckless.

I Want to see more captures (especially rebels capturing combine)