Denied 'Ropot' PK appeal

[Tinbe]

Your Steam Name: Tinbe
Your Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:40890236

Character Name: 'Ropot'
Member of staff who banned your character: @Toriwarior30055
Character/Player who carried out the PK (If known): @ovxy

Describe how your character died:
1) I got absolutely stomped while defending the rebel base, and I spent my NLR wandering around the map.
2) By the time my NLR ended, I'd found a couple of hoppermines - destroying one before advancing.
3) After the mines I went through the tunnel, only to come up behind OTA.
4) I threw a beam first, followed by staff warning me that it constituted as lonewolfing.
5) I tried running back after hearing these news, but they chased and gunned me down.

Why do you believe your PK is invalid?: To be honest, I was confused about the rules of engagement, and my judgement was clouded by past experiences.

1) Incorrect deduction that attacking OTA that are attacking other rebels counted as defensive, even if I was not next to said rebels. Had plenty of fights on previous map's bridge where the Combine were attacking, and while rebels on checkpoint were getting pushed hard, I was much further back beaming.

2) False assumption that the OTA had already spotted me when I saw them (especially after I loudly destroyed a mine nearby), compounding into the above. I've had past instances (@Simman102 can probably remember one between his PT and my vort on prev map) where me and Combine were staring straight at each other during defensive (for rebels) firefight, but neither side began shooting until a few seconds had passed.

In short, a combination of beliefs "attacking Combine attacking rebels counts as defense even if alone" and "they already spotted me and were about to shoot" that led me to think in the moment that it was a defensive action.

Date of occurrence: Beween 7th and 8th of March (01:58 on 08/03 in Finland, UK time might put it at 23:58 on 07/03).
Evidence (screenshots, logs): N/A
Any other parties involved: N/A, just me and the OTA
Misc details: N/A

 

[ovxy]

my only involvement is killing you

good luck with the appeal

 

[Simman102]

Let me clear this up:

Were you the vort who tried a solo backline flank and got shot after killing one OTA, or are you the one who died somewhere in the pitch black sewers?

 

[Tinbe]

Were you the vort who tried a solo backline flank

This one.

 

[shad]

uninvolved but really just wanted to add that i've literally seen- without dropping names here- certain staff on their rebel chars doing the exact same shit as tinbe did here and having not received a PK when they get killed for it lol

also, i think vorts should be given a little leeway in light of this rule given they're fucking laser-shooting aliens with predatory instincts but thas just me

 

[Toriwarior30055]

I ran the command, you were PK'd since you died while solo flanking the OTA raiding party after your NLR was over. It was quickly discussed (during the heat of combat) that you were far away from the location of the fight to be considered a Rambo.

 

[Ron]

I was involved in the killing, and the engagement on your end seemed rambo.

However, even if this is upheld, you should get to pick the option of "Vortigaunts facing a PK at the hands of Combine can request to be transferred to the Biotic whitelist instead. They will be drilled right away & will only have 3 OOC days to escape. before being PKed."

 

[Brandon_]

OTA that got killed, none of us hears the mine go off considering how loud the AR2 is and god knows how many grenades being tossed, you beamed me, the entire OTA turned face to roll over you only to find out you were totally alone vs a team of 8-9 transhumans+an elite
The only in-the-motion fixing this needs to be done is offering you advanced capture/drilling biotic captivity which wasn't done do to in the in-heat of the moment.

 

[Simman102]

Right, so here's my thoughts since I was already tagged in the appeal:

- I can understand giving some leeway in case of base defense like this and I would absolutely not support any PKs in most circumstances, HOWEVER

- I find the whole idea of performing a flank like this unfair simply because you died while being boxed inside the base, and got out of it only because your NLR timer ran out and you were able to get onto the back of the OTA team. This wasn't a smart maneuver in an effort to defend your home, this was throwing yourself solo against an entire OTA team after being teleported behind their back due to spawn being elsewhere.

 

[Tinbe]

- I find the whole idea of performing a flank like this unfair simply because you died while being boxed inside the base, and got out of it only because your NLR timer ran out and you were able to get onto the back of the OTA team. This wasn't a smart maneuver in an effort to defend your home, this was throwing yourself solo against an entire OTA team after being teleported behind their back due to spawn being elsewhere.

I wouldn't classify it as an intentional flank, considering I had no idea where I was going. It got so bad that - right after exiting spawn - I almost waltzed straight into the Combine base, before I noticed their barricades on the other side of the bridge. This map is a veritable maze.

 

[Simman102]

I wouldn't classify it as an intentional flank, considering I had no idea where I was going.

We're roughly 10 days into the map. There were hopper mines planted and there's a sign which states that the area you are about to enter is an OOCly protected zone. Not only that, you DID actually shoot an OTA dead. Intentional or not, this was an extremely bold flank.

I think that, ultimately, this is an issue of the citizen/Vortigaunt spawn not being set within the OOCly protected zone (why? what's the reason?), which was already an issue on rp_apocalypse with people spawning into engagements and dying repeatedly. If that's going to change (and I hope it does), the appeal should be accepted for that reason alone - if it doesn't, I can't really help you.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

there is good faith on the part of @Tinbe 's actions here and the fact they didn't mean any harm or actually tried to deliberately pull off some 'risky' flank is very evident & beyond question

this should matter to the appeal. it's not purely a question of rules-lawyering. if it were, we'd be looking at a denial of this as well

my professional opinion as frog alien lead is accept

 

[Señor Jaggles]

if it were, we'd be looking at a denial of this as well

Footnote: I must say the video showed a lot in this appeal, but this could've very well ended in a PK as the first aggression came from you, @Oswald. While it may not feel fair, you need to spin the logic around and understand anyone can claim what you did to try and get from the PK, but the truth was you shot first and they even asked you to freeze. What is more, had you not pulled out your gun you would've not been in the situation you put yourself in.

With this I want to imply that even if a bit more, capture does bring some roleplay and fighting impossible odds while you can just run for it, hide, or surrender (all of those will keep you alive, shooting first will not), is not exactly a fair decision or something that should be encouraged must like I hope CPs understand they must follow the same rule: If you're surrounded and cornered, don't fight it, because you're expected to abide by FearRP and not try to S2K your way out of impossible odds.

I put a footnote there to clarify this would most likely not happen again. This time the OTA weren't even noticing the guy and he could've just left but he decided to fire off a beam and kill someone. You can't compare both in order to accept this one.

there is good faith on the part of @Tinbe 's actions here and the fact they didn't mean any harm

I don't doubt he was not being dodgy, PKs are not applied because you're being dodgy or intentionally rule breaking, that's what bans are for. This PK was performed because he crossed a very clear line we have outlined multiple times already through the iteration when it comes to death while lonewolfing.

this should matter to the appeal

It matters, hence why I'll be looking at it more in-depth so we can try to solve this at least with a more favourable resolution, but so far I don't see any reasons for an unPK considering the only reasons given have been "other staff did it" (they're in the wrong and that doesn't serve as a 1x free unPK card), "I didn't know any better" (you're expected to read and understand the rules before playing) and "I thought it was defensive" (through Chinese whisper).

I could pass this one and then give a heftier warning on lonewolfing, making it a PK no matter the situation, considering people will try to find loopholes (like the "shooting X that are attacking Y even if ALONE is defensive", which is defensive, but you're still LONEwolfing). But that would make it worse for everyone and people would just pull these excuses when they want to flank from behind and then get unPKed after they die; I'm not saying was Tinbe's intention here, though, at all.

also, i think vorts should be given a little leeway in light of this rule given they're fucking laser-shooting aliens with predatory instincts but thas just me

They stand by the same rule - You lonewolf, you get a PK. Predatory doesn't mean suicidal though, even predators should know when they're outnumbered and in danger.

uninvolved but really just wanted to add that i've literally seen- without dropping names here- certain staff on their rebel chars doing the exact same shit as tinbe did here and having not received a PK when they get killed for it lol

Shouldn't be the case then, and it does not serve as an excuse for this person to skip the rule.

If you know who did that please tell other staff about it privately (me directly if you want, considering I'm PK management) and then we'll deal with it. Otherwise it has no weight in this situation, just because others skip around rules doesn't mean everyone will and it very much doesn't mean I'll overlook it.

This one.

Admittedly, you saw a big group of OTA who were not attacking you, you knew you were alone and you had a headstart to escape. Yet you decided to fire at them.

To be honest, I was confused about the rules of engagement, and my judgement was clouded by past experiences.

Rules of engagement are very clear in this case- If you're solo and you get killed, you get PKed.

1) Incorrect deduction that attacking OTA that are attacking other rebels counted as defensive, even if I was not next to said rebels. Had plenty of fights on previous map's bridge where the Combine were attacking, and while rebels on checkpoint were getting pushed hard, I was much further back beaming.

Having a frontline and being a sniper for that frontline is very different from flanking alone all the way around the back with no-one to help or support you. If you have a frontline you're sniping for, you're safe as that frontline keeps the enemy from reaching you. If you're flanking them from behind, you're on the offensive, and you have nobody to give you cover/go with you to support you.

2) False assumption that the OTA had already spotted me when I saw them (especially after I loudly destroyed a mine nearby), compounding into the above. I've had past instances (@Simman102 can probably remember one between his PT and my vort on prev map) where me and Combine were staring straight at each other during defensive (for rebels) firefight, but neither side began shooting until a few seconds had passed.

You still shot first. Even if you stared at each other, you should've left, not stood and fired at them considering they didn't fire at you either. If they didn't shoot and you assumed they saw you, that was your call for a retreat, not to fire first.

I would need more context into the situation, like the exact location, how far you were from them, and other details, but so far I really can't pass this merely because you claim to be confused about one of the clearest rules about engagement that other people have already been PKed for.

For those who compare it to Oswald's, that was an earlier instance, he did attempt to escape at first, there was video that showed he was trying to disengage, and I did make a footnote on that thread that such a resolution would most likely not be the case in the future.

I will be discussing this with the other PK managers but as this stands there are no reasons as to why the PK itself is invalid.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I put a footnote there to clarify this would most likely not happen again. This time the OTA weren't even noticing the guy and he could've just left but he decided to fire off a beam and kill someone. You can't compare both in order to accept this one.



I don't doubt he was not being dodgy, PKs are not applied because you're being dodgy or intentionally rule breaking, that's what bans are for. This PK was performed because he crossed a very clear line we have outlined multiple times already through the iteration when it comes to death while lonewolfing.



It matters, hence why I'll be looking at it more in-depth so we can try to solve this at least with a more favourable resolution, but so far I don't see any reasons for an unPK considering the only reasons given have been "other staff did it" (they're in the wrong and that doesn't serve as a 1x free unPK card), "I didn't know any better" (you're expected to read and understand the rules before playing) and "I thought it was defensive" (through Chinese whisper).

I could pass this one and then give a heftier warning on lonewolfing, making it a PK no matter the situation, considering people will try to find loopholes (like the "shooting X that are attacking Y even if ALONE is defensive", which is defensive, but you're still LONEwolfing). But that would make it worse for everyone and people would just pull these excuses when they want to flank from behind and then get unPKed after they die; I'm not saying was Tinbe's intention here, though, at all.



They stand by the same rule - You lonewolf, you get a PK. Predatory doesn't mean suicidal though, even predators should know when they're outnumbered and in danger.



Shouldn't be the case then, and it does not serve as an excuse for this person to skip the rule.

If you know who did that please tell other staff about it privately (me directly if you want, considering I'm PK management) and then we'll deal with it. Otherwise it has no weight in this situation, just because others skip around rules doesn't mean everyone will and it very much doesn't mean I'll overlook it.



Admittedly, you saw a big group of OTA who were not attacking you, you knew you were alone and you had a headstart to escape. Yet you decided to fire at them.



Rules of engagement are very clear in this case- If you're solo and you get killed, you get PKed.



Having a frontline and being a sniper for that frontline is very different from flanking alone all the way around the back with no-one to help or support you. If you have a frontline you're sniping for, you're safe as that frontline keeps the enemy from reaching you. If you're flanking them from behind, you're on the offensive, and you have nobody to give you cover/go with you to support you.



You still shot first. Even if you stared at each other, you should've left, not stood and fired at them considering they didn't fire at you either. If they didn't shoot and you assumed they saw you, that was your call for a retreat, not to fire first.

I would need more context into the situation, like the exact location, how far you were from them, and other details, but so far I really can't pass this merely because you claim to be confused about one of the clearest rules about engagement that other people have already been PKed for.

For those who compare it to Oswald's, that was an earlier instance, he did attempt to escape at first, there was video that showed he was trying to disengage, and I did make a footnote on that thread that such a resolution would most likely not be the case in the future.

I will be discussing this with the other PK managers but as this stands there are no reasons as to why the PK itself is invalid.

i'd rather not drag this out for your sake and the PK managers but the one thing i will point out is that the way the vort swep works, he was locked in place, telegraphing his position and inviting himself to be killed from the very start (for being a vort), and all he had to do to in order to seal his fate was M1 once on reflex, he'd already recognized the situation half a second in and even that was too late. how unforgiving do we want to be, lonewolf rules wise?

there have been some very real cases of vorts being extra-targeted by cops due to their danger and then them chalking it up as a PK on the sole basis of "the vort engaged us first" when cops count a vortigaunt's mere existence as an imminent threat to begin with. i guess it's part of the reason why the biotic grace period works well but it doesn't sit right with me personally

that is all i have to say i'll leave the ultimate verdict to you

 

[Tinbe]

Having a frontline and being a sniper for that frontline is very different from flanking alone all the way around the back with no-one to help or support you. If you have a frontline you're sniping for, you're safe as that frontline keeps the enemy from reaching you. If you're flanking them from behind, you're on the offensive, and you have nobody to give you cover/go with you to support you.

It doesn't help that during the previous map, there was an occasion where me and another vort got shot up during defense, and once our NLR wore off, we went to the bridge (straight from spawn) and ended up taking potshots at a sniper further down. Even though it was just us two with no backup whatsoever, there were no repercussions after the APC doubled back and took us out.

You still shot first. Even if you stared at each other, you should've left, not stood and fired at them considering they didn't fire at you either. If they didn't shoot and you assumed they saw you, that was your call for a retreat, not to fire first.

Again, it was a compounding factor. A decision made in the spur of the moment, in part due to a misaligned interpretation of rules accrued from past experiences. It's very hard to dictate conscious action when you're put into a fight-or-flight situation all of a sudden. There's not much else to it. I'll leave it at that as to avoid going in circles.

I would need more context into the situation, like the exact location, how far you were from them

This is the closest approximation of the layout I could get.

 

[Numbers]

i'd rather not drag this out for your sake and the PK managers but the one thing i will point out is that the way the vort swep works, he was locked in place, telegraphing his position and inviting himself to be killed from the very start (for being a vort), and all he had to do to in order to seal his fate was M1 once on reflex, he'd already recognized the situation half a second in and even that was too late. how unforgiving do we want to be, lonewolf rules wise?

there have been some very real cases of vorts being extra-targeted by cops due to their danger and then them chalking it up as a PK on the sole basis of "the vort engaged us first" when cops count a vortigaunt's mere existence as an imminent threat to begin with. i guess it's part of the reason why the biotic grace period works well but it doesn't sit right with me personally

that is all i have to say i'll leave the ultimate verdict to you

Run & gun is enabled so im pretty sure they can run/strafe while beaming

I had gary dev me a plugin for that

 

[Señor Jaggles]

It doesn't help that during the previous map, there was an occasion where me and another vort got shot up during defense, and once our NLR wore off, we went to the bridge (straight from spawn) and ended up taking potshots at a sniper further down. Even though it was just us two with no backup whatsoever, there were no repercussions after the APC doubled back and took us out.

But you were not alone, which is the key. The rules make it clear enough in that sense.

Again, it was a compounding factor. A decision made in the spur of the moment, in part due to a misaligned interpretation of rules accrued from past experiences. It's very hard to dictate conscious action when you're put into a fight-or-flight situation all of a sudden. There's not much else to it. I'll leave it at that as to avoid going in circles.

I am aware, but I am not sure how those experiences have any relation to something as simple as being alone and attacking, which is a very clearly outlined thing in the rules. I understand how the confusion may take place, but it's a mistake that can get you killed - and in this case PKed. You chose to be alone and take the risk, and that's not a decision you made during the moment of contact, but beforehand. I can take into account that you may have been in panic, but I can't take it as a reason of weight anymore as it's not verifiable. You were not shot at yet you shot first, and you were completely alone (which you had acknowledged), meaning you were in a very clear lone wolf situation.

This is the closest approximation of the layout I could get.

The way I see this you had every chance to run away and not that much cover to start an engagement at all. I understand your first knee-jerk reaction may have been shooting, but that's not exactly a valid enough reason to consider the unPK especially when nobody was attacking or pursuing you (unlike the Oswald appeal, which people have referenced). Additionally, from that distance it's not even hard to notice (hear and see) the shooting of AR2s/others coming from there without even looking, and you did have third person to be able to see them beforehand.

Now I don't mean to imply you're bullshitting me on the surprise thing, but you did go out alone exposing yourself to this, and on top of that you approached the combat which you were aware of, and fired the first shot. Rule-wise this PK is valid, and situational wise, it is too. It's a PK as a result of a specific set of decisions and events, not just because you shot first.

I'll keep looking at this from different perspectives and stuff, as well as discussing with my colleagues as I think it's fair for you to get this turned inside out as much as possible as I never like to just deny appeals in a rushed way.

 

[Tinbe]

you approached the combat which you were aware of

The hoppermines beforehand didn't clue me in on their presence, since I'd already destroyed one of them on the surface earlier without anybody near it. As soon as I caught sight of the squad, however, the realization struck that I'd just loudly fired a beam and made a hoppermine explode not too far from them. It's part of what compounded me into believing they'd spotted me.

 

[Señor Jaggles]

The hoppermines beforehand didn't clue me in on their presence, since I'd already destroyed one of them on the surface earlier without anybody near it. As soon as I caught sight of the squad, however, the realization struck that I'd just loudly fired a beam and made a hoppermine explode not too far from them. It's part of what compounded me into believing they'd spotted me.

The awareness of combat belief comes from the knowledge that they were in active shooting at the moment, was that not the case?

 

[FreeSpy]

Vortigaunts facing a PK at the hands of Combine can request to be transferred to the Biotic whitelist instead. They will be drilled right away & will only have 3 OOC days to escape. before being PKed

This if I recall properly, was made for the resisting capture rule, where instead of being icly killed and oocly pkd, you were icly wounded, captured and put as a biotic