Denied 'Ropot' PK appeal

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FreeSpy

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The awareness of combat belief comes from the knowledge that they were in active shooting at the moment, was that not the case?
We were actively firing and i remember vividly fearing a flank and having mines and a rearguard, but.

We lifted it to help push guardhouse

So we were fearing a flank, but as combat heats up, priorities change
 
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STUCK IN A CAKE

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We were actively firing and i remember vividly fearing a flank and having mines and a rearguard, but.

We lifted it to help push guardhouse

So we were fearing a flank, but as combat heats up, priorities change
Yeah, I have a screenshot of our exact location. A couple phase 1s were holding rear guard but was told to push into guard house to pick up weapons from the 3 people we just killed.

Then immediately as a couple guys stop watching the rear, we get a BSL and a vort sprints away
 
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Erkor

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I didn't even know we had mines set up, but I didn't hear it go off in any case. Tinbe did the thing (that is, killing a soldier in the middle of an engagement from the backline) but I know his character (that is, him, not 'Ropot') well enough to know that he isn't a kill-hungry, malicious go-getter who wants to shoot people in the ass to get an upper hand. Tinbe is not an S2Ker. Were I in the same position, I'd likely have done something similar albeit with worse aim, and with the rattling of gunfire in the area, I can't possibly imagine anyone besides a "haha gotcha i would"-type pretender to keep a level-enough head to just walk away. You can't expect this from people, no matter their current character, especially when it happened in some capacity before (@STUCK IN A CAKE getting lost in the tunnels and shooting a guy instinctively because he thought he had a gun).

It's not like I have any say in this besides being there when someone got shot in the back by a vortbeam, but I can't in any capacity think of any punishment that wouldn't seem unfair in this situation. Who on earth would stop and check if the people with enough weapons and ammo to kill a Vortigaunt in some three seconds flat have, in fact, noticed them? By doing that alone, you're just increasing your risk of getting killed again.

In my opinion, there wouldn't be any fairness or sportsmanship in allowing a NLR just to put 'Ropot' on a couple-day timer before he gets PKed again, or having him get drilled in the head. There wouldn't be any message made besides "if you mess up and cross Da Combine, you'll get burned, bitch". What's worse is how some people just go with the assumption that this was an intentional play. People make mistakes and get caught in the heat of the moment. This happens. You shouldn't compromise someone's RP experience from it when they've not been acting in any suspicious manner like this before (to my knowledge), and you don't have any hard evidence to the contrary.

e:

I'm not sure how much of this is "relevant information" so I won't try to drag this out into a tangent by replying to people. This is a PK appeal, after all, and while I think a judgement of Tinbe's character is necessary, I'm quite sure the appeal managers don't want to see a full discussion spurring from this.​
 
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Señor Jaggles

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I didn't even know we had mines set up, but I didn't hear it go off in any case. Tinbe did the thing (that is, killing a soldier in the middle of an engagement from the backline) but I know his character (that is, him, not 'Ropot') well enough to know that he isn't a kill-hungry, malicious go-getter who wants to shoot people in the ass to get an upper hand. Tinbe is not an S2Ker. Were I in the same position, I'd likely have done something similar albeit with worse aim, and with the rattling of gunfire in the area, I can't possibly imagine anyone besides a "haha gotcha i would"-type pretender to keep a level-enough head to just walk away. You can't expect this from people, no matter their current character, especially when it happened in some capacity before (@STUCK IN A CAKE getting lost in the tunnels and shooting a guy instinctively because he thought he had a gun).

It's not like I have any say in this besides being there when someone got shot in the back by a vortbeam, but I can't in any capacity think of any punishment that wouldn't seem unfair in this situation. Who on earth would stop and check if the people with enough weapons and ammo to kill a Vortigaunt in some three seconds flat have, in fact, noticed them? By doing that alone, you're just increasing your risk of getting killed again.

In my opinion, there wouldn't be any fairness or sportsmanship in allowing a NLR just to put 'Ropot' on a couple-day timer before he gets PKed again, or having him get drilled in the head. There wouldn't be any message made besides "if you mess up and cross Da Combine, you'll get burned, bitch". What's worse is how some people just go with the assumption that this was an intentional play. People make mistakes and get caught in the heat of the moment. This happens. You shouldn't compromise someone's RP experience from it when they've not been acting in any suspicious manner like this before (to my knowledge), and you don't have any hard evidence to the contrary.

e:

I'm not sure how much of this is "relevant information" so I won't try to drag this out into a tangent by replying to people. This is a PK appeal, after all, and while I think a judgement of Tinbe's character is necessary, I'm quite sure the appeal managers don't want to see a full discussion spurring from this.​

No, I get all of this, and it's something I keep in the back of my head because I am aware he's not some hungry guy. But there's still the thing that he was alone and approached danger, and shot, instead of bolting out. I'd probably not even worry if they noticed me or not, just run for it as I don't want to bring them my way.

The point here is this sets a precedent for anyone to say "I just misclicked/panicked" or any of the sorts and get away from it after going lone wolf, getting their shot down range and bolting. By the rules and based on the situation the PK is completely and absolutely valid as no rules were broken to my knowledge and everything is by-the-book a reason for said PK to stick.

What you present here is what currently grinds my gears; on one hand, you'd think it'd be fair to not PK him because it's not done with any ill intentions and it kind of was a quick decision (though I am partly convinced there, since there were signs of danger all over which he should've taken), but on the other I could be considered biased or pressed by people for just giving an unPK, make some feel I unPKed Tinbe's char because rebel players knew and liked the character and the player, as opposed to others who may have ended up PKed in the same situation but did not get this treatment.

I continue to consider and think about this as from one side I may receive backlash for denying the appeal outright without considering the individual circumstances (which trust me I have not, I just don't think they hold much weight as they stand), and from the other I may be questioned on my acceptance of a PK that was, by all means and purposes, valid by the book and on the field, blurring the line further and thus allowing for more loopholers to take advantage of it while at the same time making it less fair for others who may have been PKed in this situation.

"This will most likely not be the case". But it is- Oswald's unPK already carried some weight onto this and other situations, generated rumours and produced some blurring. These comments of "if you're alone but attacking the ones that attack the rebels it's okay and defensive" (among others) are not official by any means but have managed to spread and drive the judgement of @Tinbe here, when that comment holds no weight or proper specification. Yeah, if you're sniping you'll be further from the frontline - Further back, or at least, if you're flanking, you will not be alone, but never flank alone as that's reckless and will fall under lone wolfing rules (which if you think about it makes sense, as you have no backup or anyone supporting you, really).

All of this (plus the fact I like to make sure if a PK sticks is for a good reason so I take my time thinking hard about the situation), is the reason why I said I'm thinking about it and looking at it from as many POVs as possible. I don't want to leave any stone left unturned if the PK is to stick.
 

Rabid

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but on the other I could be considered biased or pressed by people for just giving an unPK, make some feel I unPKed Tinbe's char because rebel players knew and liked the character and the player, as opposed to others who may have ended up PKed in the same situation but did not get this treatment.

Tbf to you that's why the whole "PK's set a standard" thing was something we've consistently said is not true since 2015, because every situation is unique and it helps prevent PK managers from accidentally backing themselves into corners with prior rulings.

Besides if people call you biased for something like this they obviously don't know how bad shit used to be in early LP when you'd have cops killing rebels in sweeps then those same cops denying appeals lol.
 
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Señor Jaggles

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Tbf to you that's why the whole "PK's set a standard" thing was something we've consistently said is not true since 2015, because every situation is unique and it helps prevent PK managers from accidentally backing themselves into corners with prior rulings.

Besides if people call you biased for something like this they obviously don't know how bad shit used to be in early LP when you'd have cops killing rebels in sweeps then those same cops denying appeals lol.

Yeah I'm the first one to set in stone that every situation is specific, and will be judged individually, but then I'll get a growing list of cases people can bring up as they always do despite that thing being mentioned over and over. We can't deny certain similarities between cases and the implications that has, as well as there needing to be a certain degree of fairness and ensured equality between members, in order to weed out any bias based on the person themselves or their character and the factions/players that surround them.

I'll go over all of this and see what I come up with.
 
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Mic15000

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Tbf to you that's why the whole "PK's set a standard" thing was something we've consistently said is not true since 2015, because every situation is unique and it helps prevent PK managers from accidentally backing themselves into corners with prior rulings.
Yeah I'm the first one to set in stone that every situation is specific, and will be judged individually, but then I'll get a growing list of cases people can bring up as they always do despite that thing being mentioned over and over. We can't deny certain similarities between cases and the implications that has, as well as there needing to be a certain degree of fairness and ensured equality between members, in order to weed out any bias based on the person themselves or their character and the factions/players that surround them.
My best advice is to always look at PK's in a case-by-case basis. You were with me when we were managers together and you know how much I advised you against setting "standards" because standards are just cheap excuses that lawyers use.

You can refer back to old PK's sure but they should not make or break a case because there are a lot of different contexts for each PK appeal. You are the only PK manager now but there's a reason I was adamant about the no precedent rule, it's because it creates confusion for everyone and can lead you to accept or deny an appeal with an outcome you do not approve of just because there's some weird loophole precedent a year ago.
 

Señor Jaggles

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My best advice is to always look at PK's in a case-by-case basis. You were with me when we were managers together and you know how much I advised you against setting "standards" because standards are just cheap excuses that lawyers use.

You can refer back to old PK's sure but they should not make or break a case because there are a lot of different contexts for each PK appeal. You are the only PK manager now but there's a reason I was adamant about the no precedent rule, it's because it creates confusion for everyone and can lead you to accept or deny an appeal with an outcome you do not approve of just because there's some weird loophole precedent a year ago.

Aye dude my point was not that I judge on a standardised basis and I must remind you I was the one to tell you we deal with them on a case-to-case basis (as Blackquill, Rabid and other PK managers had told me beforehand). My point is merely that people will still try and bring old cases onto the table to put into comparison, and that while we do not set precedent, we need to be fair enough so our judgement is not inherently biased for whatever our opinions might be.
 

Señor Jaggles

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Right, we have discussed and looked over the situation and we have reached the conclusion that, while no malice was involved (quite obviously), PKs are not specifically and singularly a form of punishment for malicious act, but a set of game rules designed for fairness, risk accountability and other factors involved in gameplay and the life of characters. In the end we use PKs as a way to, one, set a guiding track on the expected flow of the server without hard limiting the options players have (as risking a PK is not, by any means, a crime), and two, promote a more cooperative, sensible approach to gameplay itself.

I could go on for hours about how being PKed is not comparable to being banned, but I am sure it's of your understanding that we do not PK for the sake of slapping your wrists personally, but merely a part of the cycle of character development and as such, there are rules we follow to ensure it's completed and fair for everyone.

In the case of the rules of engagement, I urge everyone to read them over and avoid falling for misconceptions that are unofficial and a mere result of rumours and the likes, as they will only confuse you further. If you have any big doubts about the rules or fear many people are falling for a misconception, make sure you contact me or Numbers directly if you wish and I will clarify/patch whatever is necessary.

As it stands, the PK is valid, the risk was taken and the situation was avoidable, thus this appeal is denied. I'm sure @Appetite Ruining Kebab will handle the rest of the vortigaunt whitelist details with you, for which I ask some leniency is ensured as this wasn't a death born of malice or anything of the sorts (if so, a ban would be in place rather than a PK), just an unlucky encounter and a mistake that anyone could make.
 
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