Serious 2018 Federal Budget

[Redhunter]

because nationalized healthcare is fucking useless and it helps nobody

Are you actually having a laugh?

National healthcare services have saved the lIves of 100,000s hell maybe even millions of people worldwide.

Private healthcare is limited to those who can afford it, you break your leg and have no insurance? Enjoy your immense pain with no provisions pal. You come down with a bed-ridden illness? No hospital for you. Quite frankly it should be a human right to healthcare no matter how basic.

I know families from the states who paid for their healthcare even when under financial pressure and having to sacrafice heat and food for a guarantee of safety.

I'd rather every person paid £4000 a year into a national service where the wealth is distributed (South East England expansion is a talk for another day) than having to pay £11000 each to cover you IF and that's IF you happen to fall Ill.

 

[2738647239865]

-snip-

just as a preface i make a distinction between ER and nationalized healthcare and see ER as a necessity in the same vein as the police, but that doesn't affect my argument whatsoever

what you're arguing is no different to the marxist notion that necessity is what determines things a 'right' rather than autonomy; can you please explain to me, if that's the case, the difference between the provision of healthcare and groceries? the idea that every commodity has to be given unearned makes no sense in both moral and practical terms - no matter how much you need food, you have no 'right' to steal the food: the idea that somebody's necessity is somehow greater than the rights of other people is ridiculous.

i wouldn't care, however, and would probably agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that healthcare entitlement doesn't work: if you think declaring healthcare as a right makes it a right i'd love for you to explain to me why the healthcare systems of south africa and cuba are so hard to access. rights don't self-actualize: once you destroy the incentive to work as a doctor by forcing them to work within certain insurance plans/work schemes you end up with fewer people becoming doctors and the value of healthcare artificially rising, causing the taxes (and prices/penalties of not subscribing to insurance plans) to rise even further (accentuated by the over-demand caused by people being forced onto healthcare programs). destroying the profit incentive also destroys any semblance of innovation - all new drugs and new surgical procedures are a product of market competition, and forcing healthcare upon people places a tourniquet on this.

also, might i ask, what do you think happens when there is a shortage of healthcare? people start to rely on ER treatment, which further increases the burden on the government/people buying health insurance. placing medical care in the hands of the market means that it inevitably becomes inaccessible for some people: trying to interfere with this via the government, however, worsens this tenfold. any attempt at nationalized healthcare is an attempt at 'cheating the game'.

 

[Blackquill]

Are you actually having a laugh?

National healthcare services have saved the lIves of 100,000s hell maybe even millions of people worldwide.

Private healthcare is limited to those who can afford it, you break your leg and have no insurance? Enjoy your immense pain with no provisions pal. You come down with a bed-ridden illness? No hospital for you. Quite frankly it should be a human right to healthcare no matter how basic.

I know families from the states who paid for their healthcare even when under financial pressure and having to sacrafice heat and food for a guarantee of safety.

I'd rather every person paid £4000 a year into a national service where the wealth is distributed (South East England expansion is a talk for another day) than having to pay £11000 each to cover you IF and that's IF you happen to fall Ill.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% brushed up on stuff going on with the NHS in the UK specifically england (I'm p sure it's different in Scotland) but I know that rn - it's one of the biggest deciding factors in general elections, especially when the threat of the tories privatizing more of it is present which it usually is. Our health care system is in a right state though, unfortunately - it gained a lot of popularity and success in our history of course but its current state is horrible - not that it doesn't save lives; hell of course it does and it's nowhere near as bad as Obama care.

The POV I usually see argued from conservatives is that when all healthcare is privatized - it drives up quality overall due to competition and what not as well as less strain on the government funding which they would invest elsewhere. Personally I don't necessarily think this is a concrete standpoint but I think it has merit to it considering the USA was like that for a while before Obama came along- I'm sure it wasn't perfect and I'm not claiming to be an expert. An example I saw in a debate between Cruz and Sanders on healthcare talked about Obamacare (and the need for business owners to guarantee their employees health insurance when they had gotten a certain amount of people hired) would bankrupt a small business owner in a particular circumstance due to not being able to afford it, thus leading them to not being able to hire more people and provide them with jobs- thus no growth. The response Sanders gave was really, really lackluster - something like "well i'm sorry but you'll have to deal with it"; and for the USA, the supposed land of opportunity, I'm sure that's quite upsetting.

Although I disagree with @skeletonman - I think National healthcare could work if done right, I lack the knowledge to make a huge case for it though - I just think it's plausible.

 

[Nömad <3]

yeah they tried taking steps to nationalize healthcare and it caused obama to lose 3 million popular votes

wanna know why

because nationalized healthcare is fucking useless and it helps nobody

I dunno both the UK and CANADA are doing fine with it

 

[NightVeil]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% brushed up on stuff going on with the NHS in the UK specifically england (I'm p sure it's different in Scotland) but I know that rn - it's one of the biggest deciding factors in general elections, especially when the threat of the tories privatizing more of it is present which it usually is. Our health care system is in a right state though, unfortunately - it gained a lot of popularity and success in our history of course but its current state is horrible - not that it doesn't save lives; hell of course it does and it's nowhere near as bad as Obama care.

The POV I usually see argued from conservatives is that when all healthcare is privatized - it drives up quality overall due to competition and what not, personally I don't necessarily think this is a concrete standpoint but I think it has merit to it considering the USA was like that for a while before Obama came along- I'm sure it wasn't perfect and I'm not claiming to be an expert. An example I saw in a debate between Cruz and Sanders on healthcare talked about Obamacare (and the need for business owners to guarantee their employees health insurance when they had gotten a certain amount of people hired) would bankrupt a small business owner in a particular circumstance due to not being able to afford it, thus leading them to not being able to hire more people and provide them with jobs- thus no growth. The response Sanders gave was really, really lackluster - something like "well i'm sorry but you'll have to deal with it"; and for the USA, the supposed land of opportunity, I'm sure that's quite upsetting.

Although I disagree with @skeletonman - I think National healthcare could work if done right, I lack the knowledge to make a huge case for it though - I just think it's plausible.

@Blackquill is right here. It is a thing that can happen but it does need work. However, I do think that if we got rid of a national healthcare system it would cause more harm than good. The are many impoverish and low-income that would not be able to afford health care without. Suppose they have an accident and they can't go to a hospital because they can't afford it. Then they are out of work. That would loose money for a company a work for.

Yet if we make it to expansive, it would cause a strain on the government which is not good for anyone. So we do need to find a god balance.

 

[Blackquill]

@Blackquill is right here. It is a thing that can happen but it does need work. However, I do think that if we got rid of a national healthcare system it would cause more harm than good. The are many impoverish and low-income that would not be able to afford health care without. Suppose they have an accident and they can't go to a hospital because they can't afford it. Then they are out of work. That would loose money for a company a work for.

Yet if we make it to expansive, it would cause a strain on the government which is not good for anyone. So we do need to find a god balance.

I think that's what the current UK government (Conservatives) Have tried to do - since they've privatized bits and pieces of the NHS rather than the whole thing to strike a balance between business funding/government funding which is what it boils down to. If memory serves though, the NHS in the past had staffing problems hence why immigration was a good way to bring in foreign talent; and obviously under-staffing is bad but the foreign talent thing is actually a pretty good thing and I'd support that any day.

 

[2738647239865]

I dunno both the UK and CANADA are doing fine with it

they definitely fucking aren't, and if you've lived in either the UK or canada and actually experienced their healthcare system you should know this, and the only reason these systems are still afloat in either of those areas is because of the upper bound of like 1% of the population that pay for half of it, but hey it's easier to give people mean ratings than come up with an actual response

 

[Oxy[Morons]]

actually yes, you can.

can't be upset over what I voted for tbh

 

[Timirald]

So much money gone to waste...
SOOOOOO MUCH MONEY NASA COULD USE.
Imagine what NASA could do with that money? Sadly though, it is being pretty much ignored...

Edit: OH FOR FUCK SAKE TRUMP WHY WOULD YOU CUT NASA'S BUDGET?!
Their budget is already small for the things they do, but nope, let's also cut the EPA because global warming is something the Chinese made up, who needs a good healthy enviroment anyways?
We'd have this stupid wall instead!

 

[Redhunter]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% brushed up on stuff going on with the NHS in the UK specifically england (I'm p sure it's different in Scotland) but I know that rn - it's one of the biggest deciding factors in general elections, especially when the threat of the tories privatizing more of it is present which it usually is. Our health care system is in a right state though, unfortunately - it gained a lot of popularity and success in our history of course but its current state is horrible - not that it doesn't save lives; hell of course it does and it's nowhere near as bad as Obama care.

The POV I usually see argued from conservatives is that when all healthcare is privatized - it drives up quality overall due to competition and what not as well as less strain on the government funding which they would invest elsewhere. Personally I don't necessarily think this is a concrete standpoint but I think it has merit to it considering the USA was like that for a while before Obama came along- I'm sure it wasn't perfect and I'm not claiming to be an expert. An example I saw in a debate between Cruz and Sanders on healthcare talked about Obamacare (and the need for business owners to guarantee their employees health insurance when they had gotten a certain amount of people hired) would bankrupt a small business owner in a particular circumstance due to not being able to afford it, thus leading them to not being able to hire more people and provide them with jobs- thus no growth. The response Sanders gave was really, really lackluster - something like "well i'm sorry but you'll have to deal with it"; and for the USA, the supposed land of opportunity, I'm sure that's quite upsetting.

Although I disagree with @skeletonman - I think National healthcare could work if done right, I lack the knowledge to make a huge case for it though - I just think it's plausible.

Not going to be breaking this down into chunks because I'm a lazy bastard and I agree with you on what you're saying.

Here in Scotland the NHS isn't in as much of a crisis as the rest of the UK. With a smaller population and less hospitals to manage we're hitting and succeeding goals set by the tories. We still suffer from understaffing and crowding at times but, generally, we're better off than down South.

A big problem that I saw with Obamacare was the fact that a hell of a lot of the population were against it. While Obamacare had good intentions it simply didn't have the people's support which reduced its effectiveness and leaving it in the trash heap.

The NHS is, as you said, in a state in Wales and England. Talking from the reports I see in national BBC we're severely understaffed and with Brexit it looks like it's going to get much, much worse with no foreign talent able to cover those missing jobs.

I find it quite funny how one of the big brexit points was that we should stop sending money to the EU and send it to the NHS. Problem is, how in the bloody fuck can you fund a healthcare system when there's no one to do the bloody jobs!?

 

[Kafe]

I find it quite funny how one of the big brexit points was that we should stop sending money to the EU and send it to the NHS. Problem is, how in the bloody fuck can you fund a healthcare system when there's no one to do the bloody jobs!?

Government also took away the majority of their grants for UK citizens that train for a doctor or nurse role. As a result applications dropped by a 3rd.

 

[jb]

So much money gone to waste...
SOOOOOO MUCH MONEY NASA COULD USE.
Imagine what NASA could do with that money? Sadly though, it is being pretty much ignored...

Edit: OH FOR FUCK SAKE TRUMP WHY WOULD YOU CUT NASA'S BUDGET?!
Their budget is already small for the things they do, but nope, let's also cut the EPA because global warming is something the Chinese made up, who needs a good healthy enviroment anyways?
We'd have this stupid wall instead!

thats fucking hilarious consitering that he's only cutting about 2 million dollars, which is hardly anything for the government

 

[Timirald]

thats fucking hilarious consitering that he's only cutting about 2 million dollars, which is hardly anything for the government

Even 1% can hurt NASA, the amount of money they get is just not enough for a space agency.

 

[jb]

Even 1% can hurt NASA, the amount of money they get is just not enough for a space agency.

I agree, but Trump cutting it by 1% isn't doing much harm.

 

[Timirald]

I agree, but Trump cutting it by 1% isn't doing much harm.

For a space agency with an already small budget? Yes it does.

 

[jb]

For a space agency with an already small budget? Yes it does.

The average cost for a space mission is about $450 million. Taking or giving two million doesn't help at all.

Except it may cover cargo costs, but that's about it.

 

[Timirald]

The average cost for a space mission is about $450 million. Taking or giving two million doesn't help at all.

Except it may cover cargo costs, but that's about it.

Cargo is a big deal.

 

[jamEs]

a

 

[jb]

Cargo is a big deal.

they brought a fucking gorilla suit up in space lmao dont even

 

[Deleted member 374]

trump and his cronies hate science so it makes sense that they're cutting a buncha funds from scientific stuff

what the fuck why science

why not something that doesn't need a buncha money like, i dunno, defense?