Resolved Băgăreţ's PK Appeal

[Maytree]

what

with all due respect it's of little concern to me that he was '''''ordered''''', man was still making it publicly known that he's an NG consultant and there was a million methods than one to avoid this happening in the first place, especially that we are able to oocly refuse (which i had no idea about until today, i don't keep an eye on psa thread). this ''consent or consueqence... grr,,'' thing felt EXACTLY like that, strongarming, and this was the result. we were FORCED. had I known we could OOCly say yes/no and be forced anyway I would've probably called for an admin

i'd like to see what @Sassyy has to say about this considering he was the one who acquired the pk auths to my knowledge, it wasn't me and boris who wanted this guy dead fyi

You haven't been reading my older posts, have you.

To repeat myself again, I appointed Bagaret to handle the interrogations and having him try out the mind-probing. If you had refused to go with the mind-probing, we would've tried alternative methods that wouldn't involve harming Hyun or anyone as long as they were cooperative. I had doubts someone would be fair with you lot in my position, so I took my chances with being the one to handle all of this.

We weren't plotting to have you thrown into edgy torture rp or have your characters PK'd to fulfil a demented B(lue)LM protester's wetdream. I knew your guys were innocent ever since you DM'd me about the Panthereye incident, and we made sure you guys had substantial fun between paranoid NG members and the rebels.

Why is this suddenly an issue right now? What took you guys long enough to PK Bagaret over the interrogation? And why are you suddenly complaining about the interrogation and the scrying being OOCly unfair despite your earlier forum posts thinking it was neat? If you think we ever wronged you on a personal level, you should take it to a ban request or to a private conversation on the forums. This is now getting irrelevant.

 

[Anti-tankspy]

asides from maytree's passive aggressiveness and extremely impolite attitude in dms im gonna make something absolutely clear because a lot of people seem to have attention problems:


1: Hyun and Boris did NOT get the PK auths. It was Sassy Sullivan. We merely assisted in capturing him initially and we tried to mercy-kill @Sil after he constantly refused to die despite having half an AK magazine probed into his upper body, so Boris shot his head to mercy-kill, AND HE STILL REFUSED TO DIE despite being shackled and stripped of his vortal energy (powergame btw). Cutting his head off was resorted to so we can kill him quickly. We threw his head infront of PD as we thought we might as well make it interesting and send a message.

2: I didn't know I could OOCly say no to the mind-probing because I don't visit the vort PSA thread. I don't have a vortigaunt whitelist. I think we should've been told so back then instead of ''lol consnet or cosneuqence xd''

We weren't plotting to have you thrown into edgy torture rp or have your characters PK'd to fulfil a demented B(lue)LM protester's wetdream. I knew your guys were innocent ever since you DM'd me about the Panthereye incident, and we made sure you guys had substantial fun between paranoid NG members and the rebels.

then you should've acted like that wasn't your intention. your man shouldn't have said 'there will be consequences' as if he was gman's vortal offspring

 

[Sassyy]

broski

you should've made that clear back then

the 'forced' mindprobe is 80% the reason you're dead lol

This ^^

As I said previously I 100% consented to being mindprobed OOCly cause it's a cool experience etc, but ICly the only thing we were told to my knowledge was "You can refuse but it may have consequences" which gives us not a lot of choice really. The Guard ICly didn't have the best track record with prisoners either (I believe a Vort got executed a few days before we got captured) so given the choice of Mindprobe or further consequences doesn't give us much to go on and ICly I'd rather not find out what those consequences were.

with all due respect it's of little concern to me that he was '''''ordered''''', man was still making it publicly known that he's an NG consultant and there was a million methods than one to avoid this happening in the first place, especially that we are able to oocly refuse (which i had no idea about until today, i don't keep an eye on psa thread). this ''consent or consueqence... grr,,'' thing felt EXACTLY like that, strongarming, and this was the result. we were FORCED. had I known we could OOCly say yes/no and be forced anyway I would've probably called for an admin

i'd like to see what @Sassyy has to say about this considering he was the one who acquired the pk auths to my knowledge, it wasn't me and boris who wanted this guy dead fyi

I was indeed the one who got auths for the PK, without @Anti-tankspy we were still planning the full thing. On the first day of the Guard taking over the Bakery we set fires to ammo boxes outside the place and left some graffiti on the windows.

As I said myself and @ovxy have been trying to get a chance to nab Băgăreţ but until yesterday it never popped up. The mindprobing was obviously a massive factor for me personally but Băgăreţ openly working with the Guard was more than enough of a reason for a lot of rebels to want Băgăreţ dead.

I have said what I think is relevant, I won't post anymore unless staff need anymore context from myself.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

it's worth pointing out (because it isn't too obvious) that a while ago, the marshal called bagaret in his office specifically to discuss his affiliations with the NG. his "honorary private" rank was stripped and he was told not to aid us in combat in an official capacity, which means he was no longer "one of ours", so the general rationale of "you took one of ours, we took one of you" does not work here for a PK imo

as for the mind probing thing; the way i always imagined it is that if a player OOCly refuses it, but a vort tries to probe them ICly anyway (either out of stubbornness or being ordered/coerced), then the probe simply won't work and the vort will say something funny like "Your Mind Is Opaque" etc.

i think it's entirely valid to RP being traumatized by a mindprobing procedure, no matter how 'innocent' and 'unintrusive' it is in reality. the matters of the mind will always be subjective and what might gently grate on one man might terrorize another. props to @Sassyy for making it a consistent part of his character

that said, i have an issue with someone choosing to RP being fucked up by a mindprobe (as well as consenting to a successful procedure OOCly), then using it as rationale for a PK. that's almost the clockwork equivalent of RPing falling down and breaking your arm from a punch so you can gat the guy who hit you later. it looks scummy at best, though i'm sure that wasn't the intention

most people had more than enough reason to gat you just for the sole fact of continuously assisting the National Guard

i think he made his choice by affiliation and that the pk is valid and not that complicated

this is a silly and obsolete argument, we are not playing regular cityRP anymore. if "you're associated with the NG" is enough PK reason then im going to consider opening the doors to high profile rebels being PKed by the NG for their affiliation as well. the guy isn't exactly going around leaking frequencies and infiltrating rebel groups



all this is to say that bagaret should absolutely pay a price for the reputation he built for himself (any kind of injury/mutilation seems pretty fair, perhaps even an exile into the IZ with PK auths given if he is seen in the city by his enemies) and should definitely suffer from the worst excesses of mob justice; but the actual circumstances (including the very fact he tried to help berkhoff) makes flat PK more than a bit shitty

 

[Maytree]

it's worth pointing out (because it isn't too obvious) that a while ago, the marshal called bagaret in his office specifically to discuss his affiliations with the NG. his "honorary private" rank was stripped and he was told not to aid us in combat in an official capacity, which means he was no longer "one of ours", so the general rationale of "you took one of ours, we took one of you" does not work here for a PK imo

as for the mind probing thing; the way i always imagined it is that if a player OOCly refuses it, but a vort tries to probe them ICly anyway (either out of stubbornness or being ordered/coerced), then the probe simply won't work and the vort will say something funny like "Your Mind Is Opaque" etc.

i think it's entirely valid to RP being traumatized by a mindprobing procedure, no matter how 'innocent' and 'unintrusive' it is in reality. the matters of the mind will always be subjective and what might gently grate on one man might terrorize another. props to @Sassyy for making it a consistent part of his character

that said, i have an issue with someone choosing to RP being mindfucked (as well as consenting to a successful procedure OOCly), then using it as rationale for a PK. that's almost the clockwork equivalent of RPing falling down and breaking your arm from a punch so you can gat the guy who hit you later. it looks scummy at best, though i'm sure that wasn't the intention





this is a silly and obsolete argument, we are not playing regular cityRP anymore. if "you're associated with the NG" is enough PK reason then im going to consider opening the doors to high profile rebels being PKed by the NG for their affiliation as well



all this is to say that bagaret should absolutely pay a price for the reputation he built for himself (any kind of injury/mutilation seems pretty fair, perhaps even an exile into the IZ with PK auths given if he is seen in the city by his enemies) and should definitely suffer from the worst excesses of mob justice; but the actual circumstances (including the very fact he tried to help berkhoff) makes flat PK more than a bit shitty

Also the way Bagaret mindprobe the suspects weren’t in the style of getting borderline-SA’d in a UFO movie. From what I glimpsed inside their cell, Bagaret created a green holographic map showing what happened in people’s prospective. Bagaret’s scrying makes Qhunnata look like a literal UFO abductor in comparison on how the two do it.

 

[Sil]

Here's some things to consider.

My character, my vort, did not wish to align immediately with the random spontaneous rebels who turned up to his home overnight. He had been living in Bucharest for a fair bit up to that point, it was clear from his character that he was someone who aligned himself with Romania and Romanian identities. The accent, the Romanian language being spoken, the Christ cross around his neck, the fact he ran a bakery that sold traditional Romanian baked goods; this is all clear evidence he was serious about that national identity; you cannot in good faith say you had no idea, because I did everything except say outright in OOC "yeah he is from bucharest" to show who he was.

Overnight, a group of rebels decide to turn up on the day that the president gets gatted and assassinated. In that city, there were 2 factions to side with: CTE, the literal Xenian Traffickers, or NG, the authoritarian militia. There was no Orsted, no ATLAS, none of that; from a character perspective, it's either the people who will enslave you, or the people who will begrudgingly protect you so long as you're cooperative and friendly to them.

So what if I was helping the guard out? Not a single fucking one of you rebels tried making any kind of effort to reach out properly to talk or interact, not a single one. I'd maybe see a couple familiar faces, but those were almost certainly other business owners, because at least they were people whom I could come on by, chat with, and lend a hand like a good neighbour. I chose the Guard because who the fuck else would you choose in that situation? If I really had a choice I'd just want to be able to operate safely and not align with anyone, but I'm a business and I need customers somehow. None of you lot bothered to make yourselves as consistent or regular customers, the only people who would consistently come on by to chat and to buy were NG and for a brief time the Infestation Control people.

What I think is absolute dogshite and completely egregious of the rebel side is that they feel that just by working with the guard, someone deserves a PK. They aren't the Combine, this isn't some "loyalist" situation, this is one side of the Resistance butting heads against the other. Making it stick where someone working with the NG could be under PK auths sets a horrible precedent that means someone could make a cell, call it something like "The Knives of Thanatos", and then get PK auths on people for being affiliated with factions they've had conflict with (which can be as short and simple as "they did not give us supplies for their safety, so now we will kill them to send a message").

But, in this case, the PK seems to have stemmed from the mind probing. That is what the auths were granted over, and were granted specifically to @Sassyy (unless I am mistaken). Having that mindprobing be apart of your character is fine and fair, and if your character wants to run with a feeling of "I was mentally violated and scarred by this" then that's fine, but that's on you, not me. I know about as much as you do in how the mind probing process goes, which is why I immediately asked in /help that I was about to do it and wanted some advice on the matter. @Numbers said it was a bit OP and insane and I explained to him that it was going to be a more simple, fun process that'll put the control entirely in the hands of the people, not me.

90% of the actual probing was me giving general prompts and leaving it up to you on how to answer. Honestly, you could've lied and I'd roll with it; memories can be fabricated, and the probing process isn't like getting an all access pass to everything. I guided everyone through the process, honestly and calmly, and let you RP how you wanted it all to go. What I didn't do was force anyone into the situation, nor try and get anyone scarred or traumatised by it; I said, ICly, that refusal is 100% okay and fine, just that there may be consequences if you do, because of course there'd be consequences. Not "you said no so you die", more "well we may have to keep you longer or interrogate you to find the answer"; I am not some representative of NG or their actions, I'm just a vortigaunt who's friendly towards them and wanted to help them out as best as I could.

 

[Lewis!]

Băgăreţ isn't even allowed to be affiliated with NG.

I think I've been the only Guardie to activatly protest your involvement. You have definitely been heavily involved for sometime even before and after my Sgt started putting the pressure on, you're a self professed free-state loyalist my brother.

 

[Anti-tankspy]

again for the last time I'm making it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT THE ACT OF BARGARET'S DEATH HAD PK AUTHS ACQURIED BY @Sassyy and not me and whoever roleplays Boris because a lot of people seem to think that I was the one who originally caused the death of this guy, he was already finished off (a magazine emptied into him) & had auths on him purely by @Sassyy

i will no longer comment on this appeal now unless an admin asks me something, talk to sassy please not me or boris

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I think I've been the only Guardie to activatly protest your involvement. You have definitely been heavily involved for sometime even before and after my Sgt started putting the pressure on, you're a self professed free-state loyalist my brother.

yeah but he's not directly responsible for berkhoff's death (almost the opposite) which is the primary motivator here in addition to a player's self-inflicted mindprobe injury

i dont necessarily blame players for doing what they did in the heat of the moment but we have moved away from PKs as the primary conflict resolution tool some time ago (berkhoff wasn't even going to die for instance if NG won the kebab shop raid). given that PKed vorts have had the option to be NLRed on a 3-day timer in Combine captivity before it makes sense to me to funnel this into a grave injury of sorts (with maybe an exile), but its up to PK management

i would not be surprised if this started a chain reaction on its own though

 

[Sil]

I think I've been the only Guardie to activatly protest your involvement. You have definitely been heavily involved for sometime even before and after my Sgt started putting the pressure on, you're a self professed free-state loyalist my brother.

I was told that I was not to be in affiliation with the Guard in a formal manner after your character's arrival. The Marshal called me in, laid things out fair and clear, and I accepted the terms. What I did afterwards was not in affiliation as a member of the NG, but as someone who wants to help their cause out. That's why I came to help out in the PD raids, and during that single offensive against the Kebab shop, which I had thought was another PD raid (which had turned into a retaliation from my perspective).

again for the last time I'm making it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT THE ACT OF BARGARET'S DEATH HAD PK AUTHS ACQURIED BY @Sassyy and not me and whoever roleplays Boris because a lot of people seem to think that I was the one who originally caused the death of this guy, he was already finished off (a magazine emptied into him) & had auths on him purely by @Sassyy

i will no longer comment on this appeal now unless an admin asks me something, talk to sassy please not me or boris

You are neglecting the fact in RP that I diverted the gun that was right next to me off to the side as it began firing, hitting a good few shots into me but not the entire magdump going through.

Plus, you were the one who killed me fullstop. You dealt the killing blow, the rest I was hoping to try and play off as "seriously injured and will massively shift the character going forward", hence the whole 'he appeared dead' after the shot to the head, lying on the ground and such. You didn't take that as an answer, you just went "no I am chopping your head off".

 

[Anti-tankspy]

Plus, you were the one who killed me fullstop. You dealt the killing blow, the rest I was hoping to try and play off as "seriously injured and will massively shift the character going forward", hence the whole 'he appeared dead' after the shot to the head, lying on the ground and such. You didn't take that as an answer, you just went "no I am chopping your head off".

brother there is no fucking way in hell you are going to convince me that your shackled and dismembered vortigaunt was going to survive being probed with bullets

you had a bullet dumped into your head point blank anyway beforehand and that should've been it for you, yet you persisted on being alive for whatever dumb reason which im pretty sure is borderline powergaming, i initially hesitated doing any further damage after being blasted like that to you but the killing blow was delivered because you were simply refusing to die

 

[ovxy]

I feel that u can agree oocly to get mindprobed for the rp but your character can still be against it icly, so calling it self-inflicted is dumb and mixing ooc with ic is even dumber

If it was fully IC you wouldn’t be allowed to refuse the mindprobe, you have guns pointed to your head in a military stronghold

 

[Anti-tankspy]

that I diverted the gun that was right next to me off to the side as it began firing,

for the record this makes no sense because your claw was cut off

 

[ovxy]

brother there is no fucking way in hell you are going to convince me that your shackled and dismembered vortigaunt was going to survive being probed with bullets

you had a bullet dumped into your head point blank anyway beforehand and that should've been it for you, yet you persisted on being alive for whatever dumb reason which im pretty sure is borderline powergaming, i initially hesitated doing any further damage after being blasted like that to you but the killing blow was delivered because you were simply refusing to die

I also feel like the heavily wounded vort was borderline powergaming

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I feel that u can agree oocly to get mindprobed for the rp but your character can still be against it icly, so calling it self-inflicted is dumb and mixing ooc with ic is even dumber

If it was fully IC you wouldn’t be allowed to refuse the mindprobe, you have guns pointed to your head in a military stronghold

its the same thing as "i punch you" and "you choose to fall to the ground and split your head and die so cops PK you for murder". its absolutely self-inflicted because you are exaggarating the intended impact of the player

good for RP but not so good for deciding to PK them over it

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I also feel like the heavily wounded vort was borderline powergaming

this should stop though @Sil you have a very consistent habit of bending reality when you're backed up into a corner. this alone should merit something heavy

 

[Sil]

for the record this makes no sense because your claw was cut off

My left arm. The gun magdumping me was coming from the right.

 

[FreeSpy]

it's worth pointing out (because it isn't too obvious) that a while ago, the marshal called bagaret in his office specifically to discuss his affiliations with the NG. his "honorary private" rank was stripped and he was told not to aid us in combat in an official capacity, which means he was no longer "one of ours", so the general rationale of "you took one of ours, we took one of you" does not work here for a PK imo

That's not how it works. Former loyalties and allegiances can still be motives for kills.

this is a silly and obsolete argument, we are not playing regular cityRP anymore. if "you're associated with the NG" is enough PK reason then im going to consider opening the doors to high profile rebels being PKed by the NG for their affiliation as well. the guy isn't exactly going around leaking frequencies and infiltrating rebel groups

Don't make these types of comments. Those PKs will be over turned if it comes to it simply based on this comment. I don't need to handle PK appeals which come with prejudice.

I was told that I was not to be in affiliation with the Guard in a formal manner after your character's arrival. The Marshal called me in, laid things out fair and clear, and I accepted the terms. What I did afterwards was not in affiliation as a member of the NG, but as someone who wants to help their cause out. That's why I came to help out in the PD raids, and during that single offensive against the Kebab shop, which I had thought was another PD raid (which had turned into a retaliation from my perspective).

This is... called being in affiliation with a group? Just because loyalists were not formally affiliated with Civil Protection in the way of being part of their ranks does not mean they were not culpable for the information that was given by them and the effects that came from it (raids, etc).

its the same thing as "i punch you" and "you choose to fall to the ground and split your head and die so cops PK you for murder". its absolutely self-inflicted because you are exaggarating the intended impact of the player

good for RP but not so good for deciding to PK them over it

i think it's entirely valid to RP being traumatized by a mindprobing procedure, no matter how 'innocent' and 'unintrusive' it is in reality. the matters of the mind will always be subjective and what might gently grate on one man might terrorize another. props to @Sassyy for making it a consistent part of his character

that said, i have an issue with someone choosing to RP being fucked up by a mindprobe (as well as consenting to a successful procedure OOCly), then using it as rationale for a PK. that's almost the clockwork equivalent of RPing falling down and breaking your arm from a punch so you can gat the guy who hit you later. it looks scummy at best, though i'm sure that wasn't the intention

You can still choose to do what is right IC for your character and like the RP. If I shot a guy and I told him afterwards good roleplay i'm sorry it turned out this way but this is what made sense for my character, and me being okay with the situation that pre-dated that which hurt me on an ooc level, does not mean I should not be able to play my character and do what is logical in my eyes.

 

[ovxy]

its the same thing as "i punch you" and "you choose to fall to the ground and split your head and die so cops PK you for murder". its absolutely self-inflicted because you are exaggarating the intended impact of the player

good for RP but not so good for deciding to PK them over it

I don’t think it’s the same thing, and getting heavy injuries over a mere punch so your assailant gets pkd feels like powergaming but in reverse

 

[Sil]

this should stop though @Sil you have a very consistent habit of bending reality when you're backed up into a corner. this alone should merit something heavy

that's fair, i do that a fair bit. tbh i just don't like losing characters and would rather carry on playing as someone that's grossly injured than have it stopped completely and want to keep RPing til the last possible chance comes around.

i'd say I was a lot better when it was the actual kidnapping part of it, i let myself get beat up and my arm half cut off, and then be fully kidnapped to be ISIS'd in some garage.