Serious HL2RP - Moving Forward

[Rabid]

Willard is Neb circa the CW era. There's no big secret to their success - they have a loyal playerbase who want their specific brand of CityRP, a fairly solid staff team and ongoing dev work. Its exactly what we had back in the day.

Meanwhile Neb's literally twice as old and our core playerbase have long since moved on to other things. Numbers' iteration worked because it was an almost total departure from the norm and drew people back in - it didn't have much dev work but it also didn't need it for what they offered specifically.

In both cases where CityRP has failed recently - Linn's iteration in 2022 and the last one - people came back because new dev work and features were offered. When the devs bailed, people quickly realized nothing would change so left as well.

I don't know why people don't think dev work is important for interest, it very much is.

 

[Rabid]

All that is to say, I think Nebs time in the Gmod limelight is done - and I don't see that as a bad thing, nor do I mean it as an attack on anyone on any level. But, to be frank, one of the worst things about running a community like we used to (or like Willard does) is you can never stop worrying about player numbers if you want to keep the lights on and keep your spot and keep drawing new players to fuel that.

That's exhausting and a massive reason I quit back when I did. It isn't fun, and doesn't promote new ideas. New ideas are a gamble. Big changes are a gamble. If you fuck up and lose players, there's no guarantee you can coax them back in. So, well, we didn't really do big changes.

But, just like with Numbers server, you don't have to do that now. Gmod isn't the focus for Neb. Do what you find fun, do something new, get a dev who'll run with whatever crazy ideas you have.

Don't be afraid to take risks and do it for the players you wanna attract, not with the idea of making some 2016-tier mega server again.

 

[Coldflame]

not really interested in putting forth any specific ideas as to what should or shouldn't be done in future, but i'll put out my 2c

i'm something of a literally who when it comes to neb and hl2rp but i'm mostly kept an ear to the ground and played at least a little of most iterations, this time around i'm fairly confident to say i was one of the higher investment players

what worked, at least initially, for me (and i would say probably for most of the people who took the iteration seriously) was the fact that players were free to make their own moves and plotlines, with staff being receptive to this. big props to riscow specifically on that front. the impromptu mini events went a long way, and there was often a tangible sense of being able to put together plans and execute them with the rewards and plot development generally being handled well (the cases where this wasnt the case were what caused a lot of friction at times imho)

what didn't work was the minute-to-minute. i don't want to put down the civil service gang or northgate for their efforts, but much of the time the city felt dead and without much to do if you weren't actively pushing for things to happen- the businesses were often met with delays and red tape, and the workshifts were pretty repetitive and monotonous (/me breaks rock). likewise, on the resistance side, once we were well established we didnt have much we could do mechanically aside from wait for/ask for admin events- gear to do our own ops wasn't made available so we were just left roleplaying amongst ourselves- fine for a while, but quickly loses its lustre once theres no plot events of note.

ultimately it came down to a case of the format relying on staff intervention and players being motivated to push for progression themselves, then understandably that not being available 24/7. either the format needs to make the default mode of play more engaging for longer periods, or it needs to adjust to guarantee the higher level of both staff and player engagement at all times which i don't think is viable for 24/7.

 

[Blitz0012]

I've got to agree with Coldflame. Ultimately what chased me off was how little I had to do, even if I brought on buddies or dug out RP we didn't really have anything going. Did manage a shop which went well, but outside of those chars we just sort of walked around and hoped to interact with something. On the post-uprising server, the ability to just pick something up and start RPing with it was great, especially when staff took notice (or you asked), even if it snowballed into something bigger or not. The city struggled with that, I think staff had their hands full trying to do the daily running that could've been handed off to players maybe? I'm not entirely sure, but a good chunk of the city was just empty, always.

City certainly struggled, me and other server nobodies couldn't really pick up something and start RPing with it like the old server, I did try and join CS with a friend so we could go about RPing with stuff but weren't sure if we could outside of Workshifts. Also it seemed my connect button was tied to the disconnect button of all the CS dudes, but that's no one's fault. City was restrictive, as it arguably should be, but really struggled to get the basics running to deter that restrictive nature.

Big hats off to Ricsow and the others who'd just make those impromptus though, that's the way the server will survive.

 

[Achilles]

If there is another attempt made on nebulous to touch HL2RP again, some critical points need to be hit.

1. Take a damn break. Don't throw up another iteration a couple of weeks or even a month from now. Give people a serious duration of time to build up ideas and a hunger to want to play on nebs hl2rp attempts again.

2. Actually dev it. In the year 2024, throwing up an iteration that doesn't have anything besides some workshop content on a vanilla schema won't cut it anymore, not in todays market where you have servers putting in lucrative amounts of work into features and game mechanics that keep it from being a dull dimadozen experience.

3. Actually do a unique timeline take. Stray away from the things we have seen dozens of times before. Try something new.

 

[MaXenzie]

remember that the key to the server’s success is to be more fun than every alternative a player is presented with

you need the server to be more enjoyable than Baldur’s gate, or helldivers, or whatever Sseth makes a video on that month

if given the option between gmod roleplay and literally anything else, you somehow need to convince people gmod roleplay is the better option

you‘d need to launch the iteration at a time where nothing is happening; no game releases, no major holidays, no large IRL events.

you’d then need to promise the players that stuff will happen when they play, and that stuff needs to happen every day, because every day someone plays where nothing happens is a day they will wonder why they didn’t just play something else instead.

you would need a staff team that doesn’t burn out in 2 weeks. IE, the staff team needs to be about 30-50 people who can be rotated active duty so everyone gets a break and doesnt have to be in staff mode 100% of the time.
anything else and the server always ends the same way: the staff stop playing, and then the players, knowing no events or oversight is occurring, will also stop playing.

 

[Essence]

I understand that HL2RP was the main attraction and grounding point for a lot of us these past eight years, some of us still persisting from the LemonPunch days, and holds quite a special place in our hearts both nostalgically and as a medium we've invested so much into - but truth be told I'd figured we'd be done with HL2 and this universe at this point. I stopped playing a good while ago, mainly due to life and school, so forgive me if I'm a bit ignorant about a lot of things from these past couple of iterations; based on what people are saying (aside from Numbers' iteration), things haven't really changed much.

In both cases where CityRP has failed recently - Linn's iteration in 2022 and the last one - people came back because new dev work and features were offered. When the devs bailed, people quickly realized nothing would change so left as well.

A few players were also getting a sense of deja vu as well from what I'm reading, and not the good kind. These iterations ran with a similar formula - the same recipe but just a few seasonings exchanged out to 'spice things up'. Just briefly reading through the changelog, there are a lot of nice QoL improvements and features that compound on frameworks that existed on past iterations of the server. Looks great, but there's nothing novel, nothing that can be used explicitly or majorly to support or heavily augment the storylines and rollenspiel that exists and tethers people together aside from what's already been done, explored and what people were used to. People weren't feeling it.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Neb's time for Gmod roleplay, or at the very least with HL2, is done. @Coldflame's experiences mirror almost exactly how general city roleplay has been since Nebulous' starting days with HL2RP. The big appeals and drawing incentives of players who get to be 'self-made' with their own plotlines and influence, provided you had the capitol to back it up, still existed - but the problem is that there's not a lot of room to continue or to make interesting stories within city-life as Citizen Johnny Half-Life and his ability to pack ration kits manually with the potential to get a ration token or Loyalty Points if they /me longer than a sentence, who knows - maybe all that malnutritioned labour is fulfilling for folks. But like you said, a lot of the 'old guard' has moved on to greener pastures or fell in to their own interests, myself included.

what didn't work was the minute-to-minute .... much of the time the city felt dead and without much to do if you weren't actively pushing for things to happen- the businesses were often met with delays and red tape, and the workshifts were pretty repetitive and monotonous (/me breaks rock). likewise, on the resistance side, once we were well established we didnt have much we could do mechanically aside from wait for/ask for admin events- gear to do our own ops wasn't made available so we were just left roleplaying amongst ourselves- fine for a while, but quickly loses its lustre once theres no plot events of note.

The city struggled with that, I think staff had their hands full trying to do the daily running that could've been handed off to players maybe? I'm not entirely sure, but a good chunk of the city was just empty, always.

City certainly struggled, me and other server nobodies couldn't really pick up something and start RPing with it like the old server, I did try and join CS with a friend so we could go about RPing with stuff but weren't sure if we could outside of Workshifts. Also it seemed my connect button was tied to the disconnect button of all the CS dudes, but that's no one's fault. City was restrictive, as it arguably should be, but really struggled to get the basics running to deter that restrictive nature.

These experiences were the same as they've always been. Citizens looking for things to jump into within the city, rebels just chilling out and shooting the shit with their armored trenchcoats and SPAS-12's and their huge muscles that spontaneously grew after doing one push-up and eating one pear / being off combine food for more than two days, waiting for opportunities to do rebel shit like a bombing or go on an expedition / operation 🤣. It's a shame too that things didn't work out well from these past two iterations because I know for a fact that people worked hard to make things fun and entertain others, it's a joy to do so. But it's as it was with past iterations, it's as it was with WW3RP, it's as it was with FrundTech / QZ.

Aimless 24/7 servers like the old days with a metaplot in the background that doesn't lead to any definitive ending or possesses a loose structure at the very most that only gets developed through events aren't really gonna cut it anymore. 'Downtime' servers where the time passes between events aren't really interesting or fulfilling in the long-term; people want action, they want to be a part of a narrative and they want to feel like they were a part of an experience. Limited time event servers that have lifespans of a few months, hell to even almost half a year, have worked and were appealing ideas, especially in the past and has been done with other communities as well; granted, they're informal communities that don't compare to the structure of how Nebulous was built to function (like the Begotten folks, for example) but they still have a loyal playerbase that's relatively tight-nit. People want to be assured that there's a structure and a plan, all while still being empowered and encouraged to have influence over that plan through in-character action - but the plan still needs to be there; a beginning, middle, and ending. Things also need to be less staff-reliant should players want to engage with the setting, this is among one of the greatest problems that failed iterations and past servers (namely, Frundtech) suffered from; an overreliance on staff that ultimately burns them out if given enough time.

TLDR; the formula doesn't work anymore / isn't as appealing. The repetitive nature, lack of novel features, and overreliance on staff have caused burnout and disengagement. Players want action, a sense of narrative, and the ability to influence the story and have agency within a structured plan. Limited-time event servers with clear beginnings, middles, and ends, and/or less dependency on staff for engaging content, could be the way forward. It might also be time to explore other roleplay mediums / settings too.

I'll take a double cheeseburger with extra pickles and no onions, medium fries, a six-piece chicken nuggets with honey mustard sauce, a large vanilla milkshake, and an apple pie for dessert please. Thank you.

 

[Tinbe]

2. Actually dev it. In the year 2024, throwing up an iteration that doesn't have anything besides some workshop content on a vanilla schema won't cut it anymore, not in todays market where you have servers putting in lucrative amounts of work into features and game mechanics that keep it from being a dull dimadozen experience.

Expecting devwork six years after the conception of Helix framework, three years after the ending of the main HL2RP Helix iteration and one year after the conception of GTARP feels a little too optimistic to me. We had at least solid three years (approximation from threads in Announcements) of active devwork for Helix by the people who sculpted into existence in the first place, but afterwards, they've focused onto new avenues such as GTARP.

Heck, HL2RP2 has shown that Helix framework can be used for a long-form server that doesn't hinge on a classic City setting for most of its lifespan - with enough staff attention, that is. I maintain my point from first page that the traditional CityRP format just isn't going to cut it. We're way past Helix's prime time in terms of developer attention, and as much as I hate to pull this card, people are getting older.

Putting oneself in the shoes of some citizen living in a Combine-held City and performing labor to receive basic resources for acquisition of food or other necessities sounds neat to a bright-eyed student who is either fascinated by the videogame it's based on or just needs something different to mundane school life, but... most of us are adults and already on that work grind in real life, so doing something similar all over again in a virtual environment (except the police equivalent are much more intrusive) doesn't sound all that appealing.

Doesn't help that CityRP highlights Half-Life's withered status quo in some weird way. It's been more a decade and we're still waiting to see what comes after Episode 2, and we're still playing CityRP where Combine rules over everyone. Nothing ever changes, nothing ever happens.

Bless Numbers and his crew for proving that sentiment wrong with HL2RP2, and bless Ricsow for still giving people things to do in HL2RP:ED.
Of course, I'm not saying you should just repeat HL2RP2. See its good and bad, and turn it into something that learned from past mistakes.

 

[ren]

I think you guys should do Fallout RP that would be so awesome

 

[Tinbe]

I think you guys should do Fallout RP that would be so awesome

Is there even a Fallout-ified version of Helix anywhere readily at hand? Because retrofitting the framework for that setting would probably take a fair few months.

 

[Rabid]

@Revanox :(

 

[Revanox]

@Revanox :(

you cant complain about forum ratings!!!!

dev work is important if other factors are completely tossed aside and ignored
helix is a sandbox rp gamemode, if you need shit dev'd for it to work at all, it is either:
1. something completely rudimentary to your idea
2. absolute crutches to a failed idea

if you realize that you can't implement something and it can only be done codewise: good job, that is what a developer is for, but if you rely on everything by ego/laziness to be done by a developer,- you ARE failing your own concept and at the same time alt-f4'ing your own dev's motivation

A lot of the mindblowing events done in numbers iteration were completely winged and done by shit we had access to as admins and in some cases needed senior admins, only rarely we had to contact @Gary and it was only done so if it was absolutely necessary for effects that are in the map itself (Citadel opening the sky portal) or needed timing that couldn't just simply be done manually

Something that is also completely disappointing, the lack of providing action for players or have a plan B. I played in almost every faction and can tell you by experience that player initiative is very, VERY versatile ranging from: can't be f*cked to do a single thing, to actually hyping up and carrying the motivation of several players, just gonna mention @Phil from MyPillow rebel group back in Blackquills iteration, he had the same problem when he wasn't around or active, a lot of players in his group lacked the initiative or interest to pursue sh*t. Also don't need to explain why lacking a plan B when people get bored is idiotic. (self explanatory)

Player initiative is always taken for granted when proposing new ideas and game mechanics, but it is something that appears only when you have a perfect concoction of self-motivation and player rewards, which is why s2k almost always works/worked, if you don't fuck it up to a massive degree.

Back to my original topic: You 'only' (hihi) need an idea that provides all of the above said to not even require a developer temporarily.
You can't completely forego a dev since there will be gamebreaking bugs and exploits that just need to be fixed or you will run into a brick wall.



TL;DR: As an SD you only require a dev for very small adjustments, everything else is on you, plot/server progression planning, player engagement and staff management are all your problems to handle.
Thus: If your idea requires a lot of effort, permissions and restrictions, it will fail.
Easy and proven ways to circumvent bureaucracy and all that is for example S2K instead of S2RP, MMORPG features that -ACCOMPANY- RP and not replace them (something that is commonly mistook and cast aside because of that), respecting player impact over plot linearity, provide autonomy to staff and give them a solid foundation to base events/story off of.

 

[Rabid]

While I do mostly agree with your post, plenty of people have repeatedly said that Neb's lack of dev work is a big part of why Willard and such took over from us - they offered new shinies that people like. I don't get it either, but it is what it is.

The same sentiment has been echoed since, too. It may not be an overall opinion but I think it does have some weight.

he had the same problem when he wasn't around or active, a lot of players in his group lacked the initiative or interest to pursue sh*t.

The eternal curse tbh. A lot of people have said the same for years; part of the problem is most of the players who are willing to engage and do get burned out because of that very fact, and the rest just want to be fed 24/7 rather than doing things themselves.

I get it, they're here to play, but it does make things a pain in the ass.

 

[Mic15000]

I remember I made like a powerpoint presentation regarding gameplay loop somewhere in the staff section a few years ago. Generally speaking most of the new iterations lacked a clear gameplay loop that did not require Admin intervention. I remember I analyzed WI on how they had a gameplay loop that was automatic in a way. I'm not sure if it was ever read by anyone in the staff area and even if it was I doubt anyone was going to actually try and work on it.

 

[fofa]

Is there even a Fallout-ified version of Helix anywhere readily at hand? Because retrofitting the framework for that setting would probably take a fair few months.

people seem to think that fitting a schema to a different universe is very hard whereas it really isn't, it doesn't even require any programming knowledge. adding new features is harder, that's a fact; but just changing the factions and names is something anyone could do if they wanted to

people bringing up dev work as a major issue really have no idea what they're talking about - people have roleplayed on world of warcraft and habbo hotel for years and there aren't many features there, yet it's the roleplay that kept them going. if you have an engaging world with an interesting narrative you attract people with that, and if you don't have that, you compensate with cool features which is precisely what willard is doing. half life 2 roleplay is long past its prime, it's time to let people explore different worlds and ideas

 

[Blackquill]

I think people confuse framework and schema, it's worth remembering they are two seperate things

Messing with the framework can easily break shit iirc,

 

[Straven]

Idk why nebulous has been constrained to HL2 RP for as long as it has, why haven't attempts been made to try other worlds (to my knowledge), or even other parts of the Half Life world like Black Mesa.

Clearly, a majority of people feel like HL2 RP as it traditionally is has been run dry and due to competition nebulous just doesn't have a place there anymore, so if there was a time to make the switch to GMod Roleplay in other worlds/settings (Fallout, Black Mesa, etc) it would be right now atleast in my opinion.

 

[ren]

Like mentioned above, it's time to move on from HL2RP—it's been done to death. Try something new. The energy spent trying to keep HL2RP alive could be better used to create something fresh, like a Fallout RP or anything else. No one wants to go back to collecting rations for 20 tokens.

 

[Revanox]

No one wants to go back to collecting rations for 20 tokens.

did... did this man play numbers iteration

 

[boots]

you cant complain about forum ratings!!!!

dev work is important if other factors are completely tossed aside and ignored
helix is a sandbox rp gamemode, if you need shit dev'd for it to work at all, it is either:
1. something completely rudimentary to your idea
2. absolute crutches to a failed idea

if you realize that you can't implement something and it can only be done codewise: good job, that is what a developer is for, but if you rely on everything by ego/laziness to be done by a developer,- you ARE failing your own concept and at the same time alt-f4'ing your own dev's motivation

A lot of the mindblowing events done in numbers iteration were completely winged and done by shit we had access to as admins and in some cases needed senior admins, only rarely we had to contact @Gary and it was only done so if it was absolutely necessary for effects that are in the map itself (Citadel opening the sky portal) or needed timing that couldn't just simply be done manually

Something that is also completely disappointing, the lack of providing action for players or have a plan B. I played in almost every faction and can tell you by experience that player initiative is very, VERY versatile ranging from: can't be f*cked to do a single thing, to actually hyping up and carrying the motivation of several players, just gonna mention @Phil from MyPillow rebel group back in Blackquills iteration, he had the same problem when he wasn't around or active, a lot of players in his group lacked the initiative or interest to pursue sh*t. Also don't need to explain why lacking a plan B when people get bored is idiotic. (self explanatory)

Player initiative is always taken for granted when proposing new ideas and game mechanics, but it is something that appears only when you have a perfect concoction of self-motivation and player rewards, which is why s2k almost always works/worked, if you don't fuck it up to a massive degree.

Back to my original topic: You 'only' (hihi) need an idea that provides all of the above said to not even require a developer temporarily.
You can't completely forego a dev since there will be gamebreaking bugs and exploits that just need to be fixed or you will run into a brick wall.



TL;DR: As an SD you only require a dev for very small adjustments, everything else is on you, plot/server progression planning, player engagement and staff management are all your problems to handle.
Thus: If your idea requires a lot of effort, permissions and restrictions, it will fail.
Easy and proven ways to circumvent bureaucracy and all that is for example S2K instead of S2RP, MMORPG features that -ACCOMPANY- RP and not replace them (something that is commonly mistook and cast aside because of that), respecting player impact over plot linearity, provide autonomy to staff and give them a solid foundation to base events/story off of.

I think this is insane cope though, yes you are correct, that things can be done by hand and don't need dev to get good events done. But eventually this leads to burnout, because everything needs to be done manually, and the day that the admins want to take a break, the whole server falls apart and there is no gameplay for the players.

Dev work is there to assist admins in doing stuff and making it easier to run events alongside a plot line and engaging gameplay