hl2rp² feedback thread 2.0²

[Generally Fruity]

do you ever stop to wonder why the s2k is drilled so deep? at one point in our past, dying in s2k meant losing everything. this is no longer the case, so there is no reason to be on a hair trigger.

 

[boots]

The main take from this was that there was no word from the event's GM telling cops to do otherwise. Lighthouse WINDER was hit by a bomb only days before, so of course CPs will be on high alert.

 

[MaXenzie]

do you ever stop to wonder why the s2k is drilled so deep? at one point in our past, dying in s2k meant losing everything. this is no longer the case, so there is no reason to be on a hair trigger.

ideally we'd all be old and mature enough to stop using S2K and switch to something that actually has roleplay at the forefront like S2RP

you can bring up the numerous flaws of s2k and the only counterargument you receive is:
"it's what we always used" (appeal to tradition)
"it wouldnt solve all our problems" (nirvana fallacy)
"i dont like it" (entitled-to-opinion fallacy)
"i cant see a situation where it works" (appealing to common sense)

and then you get shit like
"its too slow"

motherfucker this is a roleplay server.
a text based roleplay server
we communicate by typing long-form sentences at each other

if you get bored doing that then you're not actually a fan of roleplaying via text.

 

[Flop]

ideally we'd all be old and mature enough to stop using S2K and switch to something that actually has roleplay at the forefront like S2RP

you can bring up the numerous flaws of s2k and the only counterargument you receive is:
"it's what we always used" (appeal to tradition)
"it wouldnt solve all our problems" (nirvana fallacy)
"i dont like it" (entitled-to-opinion fallacy)
"i cant see a situation where it works" (appealing to common sense)

and then you get shit like
"its too slow"

motherfucker this is a roleplay server.
a text based roleplay server
we communicate by typing long-form sentences at each other

if you get bored doing that then you're not actually a fan of roleplaying via text.

Not ontopic but S2RP has myraid of issues. Ofc I do prefer it over stale s2k cause we do have much of it but on a large scale it can be seizure inducing to players and admins.

 

[MaXenzie]

Not ontopic but S2RP has myraid of issues.

as far as im aware 90% of S2RP's issues are baked into the idea that players will inherently abuse, skirt, sidestep, or undermine it

it is not a flaw of the system, it is a flaw of the people using it.

 

[Blackquill]

ideally we'd all be old and mature enough to stop using S2K and switch to something that actually has roleplay at the forefront like S2RP

you can bring up the numerous flaws of s2k and the only counterargument you receive is:
"it's what we always used" (appeal to tradition)
"it wouldnt solve all our problems" (nirvana fallacy)
"i dont like it" (entitled-to-opinion fallacy)
"i cant see a situation where it works" (appealing to common sense)

and then you get shit like
"its too slow"

motherfucker this is a roleplay server.
a text based roleplay server
we communicate by typing long-form sentences at each other

if you get bored doing that then you're not actually a fan of roleplaying via text.

I'm gonna actually respond to this because the logic on display kinda annoyed me a bit. This is in good faith though as I ultimately agree with the idea that s2k as a system can be very harmful to actual roleplay sometimes

But first thing I wanna point out - the 'it's slow' argument is one that's very valid and I'll explain why. Normal RP, passive RP typically has no real stakes meaning it doesn't matter if it's slow or not. Combat does have stakes/is supposed to have stakes and people OOCLy want to win as well as ICly which devolves s2rp fights into prolonged back and forths where no side is willing to take an L or p2l without ooc intervention from staff, dms and the like.

This often means a firefight that could be done in a few minutes could take way longer and neither side is getting much in the way of development out of it. I will concede though that if both parties are playing along and willing to compromise/take an L and the like, s2rp can work out but that's not representative of an average player vs player situation.

Next onto the fallacy fallacy part of your post.
"It's what we've always used" - What people mean when they say this isn't "its traditional so don't change it" it's "we know this system, it's proved it's longevity over the years and the alternatives aren't exactly straight upgrades". There are still flaws with that logic but to claim it's purely sticking to tradition is unfair.

"It wouldn't solve all our problems" - I'll admit, this is one I used to use a lot back in the day because it's objectively true. You can change systems but you can't change how people use those systems. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try, though.

The rest is just subjective opinion stuff which I have no issue with.

 

[MaXenzie]

I'm gonna actually respond to this because the logic on display kinda annoyed me a bit. This is in good faith though as I ultimately agree with the idea that s2k as a system can be very harmful to actual roleplay sometimes

But first thing I wanna point out - the 'it's slow' argument is one that's very valid and I'll explain why. Normal RP, passive RP typically has no real stakes meaning it doesn't matter if it's slow or not. Combat does have stakes/is supposed to have stakes and people OOCLy want to win as well as ICly which devolves s2rp fights into prolonged back and forths where no side is willing to take an L or p2l without ooc intervention from staff, dms and the like.

This often means a firefight that could be done in a few minutes could take way longer and neither side is getting much in the way of development out of it. I will concede though that if both parties are playing along and willing to compromise/take an L and the like, s2rp can work out but that's not representative of an average player vs player situation.

Next onto the fallacy fallacy part of your post.
"It's what we've always used" - What people mean when they say this isn't "its traditional so don't change it" it's "we know this system, it's proved it's longevity over the years and the alternatives aren't exactly straight upgrades". There are still flaws with that logic but to claim it's purely sticking to tradition is unfair.

"It wouldn't solve all our problems" - I'll admit, this is one I used to use a lot back in the day because it's objectively true. You can change systems but you can't change how people use those systems. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try, though.

The rest is just subjective opinion stuff which I have no issue with.

finally a based discussion worth having

But first thing I wanna point out - the 'it's slow' argument is one that's very valid and I'll explain why. Normal RP, passive RP typically has no real stakes meaning it doesn't matter if it's slow or not. Combat does have stakes/is supposed to have stakes and people OOCLy want to win as well as ICly which devolves s2rp fights into prolonged back and forths where no side is willing to take an L or p2l without ooc intervention from staff, dms and the like.

This often means a firefight that could be done in a few minutes could take way longer and neither side is getting much in the way of development out of it. I will concede though that if both parties are playing along and willing to compromise/take an L and the like, s2rp can work out but that's not representative of an average player vs player situation.

the idea that there's stakes a player would OOCly be invested in is strictly a Gmod thing as far as im aware.
you can check DiscordRPs, ForumRPs, WoW's roleplay scene, and most anywhere else, and they usually come with the clause that you can opt out of whatever outcome could arrive, or that you can simply leave if you're not OOCly enjoying yourself. they understand that being forced to sit there and have your character curbstomped to death is not a fun experience, and so they let players opt out of that unpleasant experience

every time i get involved in a S2RP encounter (John Doe vs X-RAY being the notably example in this iteration) i refuse to actually RP until I've OOCly worked out the outcome of the fight between me and my partner, and we've agreed on that outcome
the stakes are strictly IC because we both know how it will end, and we've agreed the ending of the fight will further character development
X-RAY got crushed underneath his computer setup and lost his sadomasochistic video archive of him torturing people, and John Doe's leg got blown off by a shotgun iirc
we both survived, and characters developed as a result

"It's what we've always used" - What people mean when they say this isn't "its traditional so don't change it" it's "we know this system, it's proved it's longevity over the years and the alternatives aren't exactly straight upgrades". There are still flaws with that logic but to claim it's purely sticking to tradition is unfair.

i mean the fallacy is in-effect "we know it works so there's no point testing to see if there's a better alternative"
we're getting to the point where most people know that S2K is a flawed system but they're so entrenched in its usage that they refuse to accept anything else

to me, it hasn't proved its longevity since day 1. S2K is conceptually shit and antithetical to roleplay.
all RP drops immediately for a quick game of laggy CSGO, determined by OOC skill and absolutely banal bullshit like how good your computer is.

 

[Subeh]

>server drops from 20 players to 9 in the span of a minute after the cops abruptly attack the rebels while they're RPing outside the base

>"why's the server struggling"

 

[Luft]

sounds like something we've been talking about for like 7 years now

oh wait

 

[Blackquill]

the idea that there's stakes a player would OOCly be invested in is strictly a HL2RP thing as far as im aware.
you can check DiscordRPs, ForumRPs, WoW's roleplay scene, and most anywhere else, and they usually come with the clause that you can opt out of whatever outcome could arrive, or that you can simply leave if you're not OOCly enjoying yourself. they understand that being forced to sit there and have your character curbstomped to death is not a fun experience, and so they let players opt out of that unpleasant experience

every time i get involved in a S2RP encounter (John Doe vs X-RAY being the notably example in this iteration) i refuse to actually RP until I've OOCly worked out the outcome of the fight between me and my partner, and we've agreed on that outcome
the stakes are strictly IC because we both know how it will end, and we've agreed the ending of the fight will further character development
X-RAY got crushed underneath his computer setup and lost his sadomasochistic video archive of him torturing people, and John Doe's leg got blown off by a shotgun iirc
we both survived, and characters developed as a result

For sure it's a specific issue that's not widely applicable, like you said in many other formats there is mutual understanding and agreements between players which as I mentioned in my post, makes s2rp combat or I guess we can call it 'text combat' way more enjoyable, fun and worth doing. The issue lies in if both parties, for some reason don't want to lose and want to win as much as possible.

At least stuff like DND and other RP formats use rolls way more frequently, you can try to win as much as you want but if your rolls are shit, tough shit you know? Cry about it.

i mean the fallacy is in-effect "we know it works so there's no point testing to see if there's a better alternative"
we're getting to the point where most people know that S2K is a flawed system but they're so entrenched in its usage that they refuse to accept anything else

to me, it hasn't proved its longevity since day 1. S2K is conceptually shit and antithetical to roleplay.
all RP drops immediately for a quick game of laggy CSGO, determined by OOC skill and absolutely banal bullshit like how good your computer is

I agree, it's a flawed system and there's no reason to not try experimenting to fix it. It was something I contemplated many times when I was SD but the problem comes with the actual implementation side of the experiment. I never got that far, it was too ingrained in the server's culture to change at that point.

 

[MaXenzie]

For sure it's a specific issue that's not widely applicable, like you said in many other formats there is mutual understanding and agreements between players which as I mentioned in my post, makes s2rp combat or I guess we can call it 'text combat' way more enjoyable, fun and worth doing. The issue lies in if both parties, for some reason don't want to lose and want to win as much as possible.

i think part of the reason this happened is because 90% of the time the lose condition was always just "you die and eat a PK"
which in almost every other RP medium just doesn't happen

people had to play to win because the alternative was losing a character they had spent months or possibly years on, so of course everyone would be as anal and particular and powergamey as the rules would let them be, their literal enjoyment of the server (their character, avatar, and sole means of interacting with said server) is on the line

you see other systems like forums use Grievous Injuries where instead of dying you're just hurt bad and out of commission, or Discord which usually just has a "you cannot attempt to kill me unless i OOCly permit it" rule, and these situations never occur

At least stuff like DND and other RP formats use rolls way more frequently, you can try to win as much as you want but if your rolls are shit, tough shit you know? Cry about it.

this fucks me off too
not you mentioning this, but lots of people have tried this on me as a Gotcha.
i've been a DM for 10+ years, and while HL2RP has a lot to learn from D&D, rolls for the sake of rolls isn't one of them
if a player is rolling awfully for the entire day, most competent DMs start fudging (changing roll results behind the screen) or changing the circumstances to a situation that requires less rolling, or letting the player pass situations solely by roleplaying ("don't roll for persuasion, just tell me your argument")

never would i ever tell my players to cry about it because lady luck decided to shit in their cereal
the fun of the table is my responsibility, and if the dice is trying to ruin the session, fuck the dice

I agree, it's a flawed system and there's no reason to not try experimenting to fix it. It was something I contemplated many times when I was SD but the problem comes with the actual implementation side of the experiment. I never got that far, it was too ingrained in the server's culture to change at that point.

it being entrenched in "server culture" is part of why it fucks me off so much
i can make the best rationale for transitioning to S2RP imaginable, listing off every way to implement it and minimize abuse and make it fun for both players and staff

and then the suggestion gets canned solely because players just dont want to switch.

 

[Blackquill]

i think part of the reason this happened is because 90% of the time the lose condition was always just "you die and eat a PK"
which in almost every other RP medium just doesn't happen

people had to play to win because the alternative was losing a character they had spent months or possibly years on, so of course everyone would be as anal and particular and powergamey as the rules would let them be, their literal enjoyment of the server (their character, avatar, and sole means of interacting with said server) is on the line

you see other systems like forums use Grievous Injuries where instead of dying you're just hurt bad and out of commission, or Discord which usually just has a "you cannot attempt to kill me unless i OOCly permit it" rule, and these situations never occur

I'm not up to date on how current HL2RP systems work but it's not just about PKs, civil protection also really wanted to win all the time back then and they virtually had no risk if they lost other than getting memed on oocly. It was a big complaint reb players would always bring up

this fucks me off too
not you mentioning this, but lots of people have tried this on me as a Gotcha.
i've been a DM for 10+ years, and while HL2RP has a lot to learn from D&D, rolls for the sake of rolls isn't one of them
if a player is rolling awfully for the entire day, most competent DMs start fudging (changing roll results behind the screen) or changing the circumstances to a situation that requires less rolling, or letting the player pass situations solely by roleplaying ("don't roll for persuasion, just tell me your argument")

never would i ever tell my players to cry about it because lady luck decided to shit in their cereal
the fun of the table is my responsibility, and if the dice is trying to ruin the session, fuck the dice

Oh that wasn't really my point

My point was at least D&D/other formats don't JUST rely on the players themselves to mediate combat. They have other factors to keep things going. Be it rolls, or mutual understandings and so on. I don't have much experience in these formats tho so I can't really say a whole lot about it as a whole.

it being entrenched in "server culture" is part of why it fucks me off so much
i can make the best rationale for transitioning to S2RP imaginable, listing off every way to implement it and minimize abuse and make it fun for both players and staff

and then the suggestion gets canned solely because players just dont want to switch.

Reminds me of the age old saying, you can walk a horse to a well but you can't make it drink; or something similar to that.

 

[MaXenzie]

I'm not up to date on how current HL2RP systems work but it's not just about PKs, civil protection also really wanted to win all the time back then and they virtually had no risk if they lost other than getting memed on oocly. It was a big complaint reb players would always bring up

tbf i recall civil protection players getting OOCly punished for losing with shit like deranks if they got killed in particular areas/holding certain items so even that was fucked in the first place

also, like-
since S2K is strictly a OOC skill test, yeah people would take the piss out of each other
RP should never be able to be classed as actual unironic OOC skill issues

my "never touched a gun before in his life" character shouldn't be expected to wield an M4 and go on a killing spree just because im cracked at counter strike

My point was at least D&D/other formats don't JUST rely on the players themselves to mediate combat. They have other factors to keep things going. Be it rolls, or mutual understandings and so on. I don't have much experience in these formats tho so I can't really say a whole lot about it as a whole.

i mean it wouldnt be hard to make a codified system for S2RP in the server
one wherein it's obvious if someone is ignoring/abusing it, and then someone can just go /help this guy's breaking the s2rp rules and a staff member checks a single log and confirms it

hell numbers was asking me to do it in the past but there was fuck-all point in me going through the effort when people on this server will refuse free food if its not from a ration machine

 

[shad]

s2k can and should exist but u shouldn't ever let it overshadow RP

server-wide s2rp is never going to work when you're dealing with main character syndrome on every front unless u defer to roll system, thats speakin from experience

if certain ppl are that engagement-dependent to get any enjoyment out of text based rp maybe they should try cvr instead i hear it's fun

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

the only thing i have to add in regards to GM letting combine know not to interfere with events is that it's a practice we adhered to before at certain points in the iteration's lifespan and its always a 50/50 on whether it's taken gracefully or produces disgruntlement in the combine players, especially if they become keen on starting an engagement before you have to correct them about what's going on (which can and will happen no matter how much you try to get ahead of it)

and you cant really blame them for being unhappy because combine players are facing a constant engagement crisis as-is by design and it doesnt feel amazing to be told to steer clear of the one interesting thing they had a glimpse at all day

its a solution but far from a perfect one

 

[Mike65536]

tbf i recall civil protection players getting OOCly punished for losing with shit like deranks if they got killed in particular areas/holding certain items so even that was fucked in the first place

also, like-
since S2K is strictly a OOC skill test, yeah people would take the piss out of each other
RP should never be able to be classed as actual unironic OOC skill issues

my "never touched a gun before in his life" character shouldn't be expected to wield an M4 and go on a killing spree just because im cracked at counter strike



i mean it wouldnt be hard to make a codified system for S2RP in the server
one wherein it's obvious if someone is ignoring/abusing it, and then someone can just go /help this guy's breaking the s2rp rules and a staff member checks a single log and confirms it

hell numbers was asking me to do it in the past but there was fuck-all point in me going through the effort when people on this server will refuse free food if its not from a ration machine

I also wanna add to this in terms of OOC factors playing a roll in how things turn out. Some items in this gamemode are just broken. In the latest fight in White House (Which we were only at because we were attempting to enjoy a GM ran event.) Is a good example. Cops threw flashbangs into the house. Which- cool whatever. It's a viable strat. My problem is that despite not even LOOKING at the flash bang, and having it land way past me, my screen turned so white I thought I had died and was on my way to the pearly gates.. I don't want to bring up the 'IRL card' because that's dumb when talking about a video game (I work corrections and having used these devices I could go on and on about how these things work, given different room sizes, lighting levels etc. etc.)- but even in CS itself they aren't that bad.





EDIT: Flintlock pistol when?

 

[Warwick]

Attribute based roll systems are the best form of fair combat in modern RP. It evens the playing field so much. Aside from that, you have to ensure every party is willing to lose, which is near impossible.

Unfortunately, this community is so ingrained in S2K, that a Roll Based system would never happen, at least as far as I can see. Thankfully most of you guys have never encountered the text RP’s dreaded equivalent, T1. Literally based on dealing hits determined by who can type quicker lmao

 

[Rabid]

As others have said, give cops a focus and give them the same engagement rebels routinely get and you will see these sorts of clashes stop.

I remember in Ineu when rebels felt like they had no idea of what was going on and were sitting around bored because the Combine had been given a bit of an arc (to the point of hunting cops to get something to do) that the second they raised the issue on the forums everyone jumped on the chance to correct it with events and engagement that solved the issue.

So why are cops - as a collective, faction, players, whatever - met with the effective version of "yeah whatever, just stay in your lane"? Why is this not actually being solved?

I sympathise with the rebels involved and I'm not saying they shouldn't have quit or that they're at fault, mind you.

 

[constantdisplay]

As others have said, give cops a focus and give them the same engagement rebels routinely get and you will see these sorts of clashes stop.

I remember in Ineu when rebels felt like they had no idea of what was going on and were sitting around bored because the Combine had been given a bit of an arc (to the point of hunting cops to get something to do) that the second they raised the issue on the forums everyone jumped on the chance to correct it with events and engagement that solved the issue.

So why are cops - as a collective, faction, players, whatever - met with the effective version of "yeah whatever, just stay in your lane"? Why is this not actually being solved?

I sympathise with the rebels involved and I'm not saying they shouldn't have quit or that they're at fault, mind you.

even if rebels did do this sometimes in the past, its a persistent one side issue now - at least since after bucharest. outside of stuff organised beforehand like raids, i dont think rebels initiate s2k nearly as much as cops even when theres nothing happening. if rebels can manage to create their own rp without shooting at shit, why cant cops? im guessing its kinda hard to sympathise with it as an event runner as well if cops keep butting into ur shit on purpose

 

[Rabid]

even if rebels did do this sometimes in the past, its a persistent one side issue now - at least since after bucharest.

That's my entire point, really! One side is being given crumbs told to deal with it while rebels are given the tools they need to not be bored doing 24/7 passive anymore.

Put rebels in the cops shoes and they'd do exactly what cops are doing right now if it meant finding something to do. No faction can exist on passive all day, as much as I love passive.

if rebels can manage to create their own rp without shooting at shit, why cant cops?

Because rebels routinely get access to, and included in, really cool RP scenarios on the side - both via event runners and by dint of people just dropping shit to do on them. When you know you'll get something cool maybe in a few hours or tomorrow, its easy to sit and passive and relax without care.

Hell, why did rebels go out to the lighthouse to begin with? Because they were getting a cool thing done for them. Why did cops go on patrol? To find something to do themselves.