the last of us part II (potential spoilers ahead)

MaXenzie

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i didn't know the context someone just sent it to me

r/gamingcirclejerk are religiously defending the game

r/tlou2 are shitting on it

they're having a literal subreddit war rn and a lot of posts are just shitting on the other sub
 

Powley

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dijj7qg7g2751.png


japan really aint vibing
 
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Rabid

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So I got to play a few hours at a friends today.

Graphically? Gorgeous. Gameplay? Fun and tense. TLOU2, as a game, is fucking fun. It might be one of the best games I've played in quite a while. But the story - everything I said - still stands for me. That is what ruins it, and it is sad because the gameplay is everything I liked in the first but better.
 
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MaXenzie

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So I got to play a few hours at a friends today.

Graphically? Gorgeous. Gameplay? Fun and tense. TLOU2, as a game, is fucking fun. It might be one of the best games I've played in quite a while. But the story - everything I said - still stands for me. That is what ruins it, and it is sad because the gameplay is everything I liked in the first but better.

its as anthony fantano said

if i offer you a bowl of sweet and delicious punch you'll drink it
but if i put a thimble of piss into that punch, you're not drinking it
it's still good punch and there's not much piss in it
but it's still got piss in it

naughty dog always delivers great sound, gameplay, and graphics
but its tainted by a dogshit story, which means there's no actual motivation to participate in what makes the game good
 
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if i offer you a bowl of sweet and delicious punch you'll drink it
but if i put a thimble of piss into that punch, you're not drinking it
it's still good punch and there's not much piss in it
but it's still got piss in it
Considering the story is what primarily makes TLOU as a series good, it's kind of like you're putting a thimble of punch into a bowl of piss. If this were X generic zombie game where the gameplay is what matters, the game would be fine, but when the first game received its universal praise primarily because of the brilliant story you have to meet the same expectation for the sequel

And after watching a playthrough I can confidently say that Abby's storyline is such a massive bore. I just literally don't care about it and it feels incredibly generic
 
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MaXenzie

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Considering the story is what primarily makes TLOU as a series good, it's kind of like you're putting a thimble of punch into a bowl of piss. If this were X generic zombie game where the gameplay is what matters, the game would be fine, but when the first game received its universal praise primarily because of the brilliant story you have to meet the same expectation for the sequel

And after watching a playthrough I can confidently say that Abby's storyline is such a massive bore. I just literally don't care about it and it feels incredibly generic

here's the thing

abby is not a bad character unto herself
she's well written, well-acted, and overall pretty good as far as protagonist material goes

but they introduce her in the worst fashion possible
and every time you're playing as her, that will be in the back of your mind
and it will make you happy to see her die in-game, even when that's not the desired effect

naughty dog assumed that no one is capable of holding a grudge
if you're a very empathetic person who never holds anything against anyone, you'll probably like abby
if you hold grudges and find it hard to forgive, the game will always fail for you

they were going for a unwilling empathy route, where you start the game hating her and slowly begin to like her as the game goes on, until by the end you don't want ellie to kill her
but this falls flat on its face if you hold what she does as irredeemable, which most people do
 
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here's the thing

abby is not a bad character unto herself
she's well written, well-acted, and overall pretty good as far as protagonist material goes

but they introduce her in the worst fashion possible
and every time you're playing as her, that will be in the back of your mind
and it will make you happy to see her die in-game, even when that's not the desired effect

naughty dog assumed that no one is capable of holding a grudge
if you're a very empathetic person who never holds anything against anyone, you'll probably like abby
if you hold grudges and find it hard to forgive, the game will always fail for you

they were going for a unwilling empathy route, where you start the game hating her and slowly begin to like her as the game goes on, until by the end you don't want ellie to kill her
but this falls flat on its face if you hold what she does as irredeemable, which most people do
That's the thing. They made far too many assumptions on how the player would feel. It's quite clear how they intended the player to feel and think throughout the game:

1. Be angry and want revenge
2. Start to understand that Ellie is making bad decisions and letting revenge consume her
3. Understand that killing is bad/the people you are killing are people too
4. Feel gratification that Ellie understands this at the end of the game

But everyone I've seen play the game (as well as myself) simply cannot emphasize with Abby for the precise reasons you've stated
 
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Rabid

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What makes this fact worse is that they tied Abby to someone you are forced to kill; someone not even given a name - they're a random NPC who draws a scalpel on you. This inherently makes the fact they're forcing you to sympathise with her by trying to build her up over the course of the game when not only are Ellie and Joel beloved characters but they had an entire prior game and DLC to establish who they are incredibly one-sided.

When Abby does what she does to a character you've loved and wanted to see redemption, its done off the back of something you couldn't avoid by a character you don't want to sympathise with. Why would you? The duality of "you are their antagonist" would have worked if Abby had her own game too.

But she didn't. Like of course Abby has people she cares about. Of course she'd be pissed and want revenge. But I had no interest in playing as her and I frankly just didn't sympathise, because they tried to cram it all into one part of the game and some cutscenes.
 
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MaXenzie

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What makes this fact worse is that they tied Abby to someone you are forced to kill; someone not even given a name - they're a random NPC who draws a scalpel on you. This inherently makes the fact they're forcing you to sympathise with her by trying to build her up over the course of the game when not only are Ellie and Joel beloved characters but they had an entire prior game and DLC to establish who they are incredibly one-sided.

When Abby does what she does to a character you've loved and wanted to see redemption, its done off the back of something you couldn't avoid by a character you don't want to sympathise with. Why would you? The duality of "you are their antagonist" would have worked if Abby had her own game too.

But she didn't. Like of course Abby has people she cares about. Of course she'd be pissed and want revenge. But I had no interest in playing as her and I frankly just didn't sympathise, because they tried to cram it all into one part of the game and some cutscenes.

someordinarygamer said that TLOU2 should've just been abby and not mentioned or involved ellie or joel at all

i kinda agree with him
 
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It definitely would have been interesting if you played as Abby first and gotten to like her as a character before the golfing commenced. Would have posed a much more thought provoking moment that actually makes the gamer question whether or not they still like her.
 
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Rabid

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I've just realised one of my biggest problems with Abby tbh; she doesn't react like Ellie does.

Ellie actually breaks down (multiple times) over the violence she commits. Abby? Not once. We never get anything close to any sort of remorse or doubt with her. TLOU2 tries very hard to make us sympathise but it just falls flat because at the end of the day, for most of the experience, Abby is a remorseless fuck.

Ellie finds out she shot a pregnant woman and vomits and has a breakdown. Abby replies "good" when she goes to kill Dina.
 
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Trains

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I've just realised one of my biggest problems with Abby tbh; she doesn't react like Ellie does.

Ellie actually breaks down (multiple times) over the violence she commits. Abby? Not once. We never get anything close to any sort of remorse or doubt with her. TLOU2 tries very hard to make us sympathise but it just falls flat because at the end of the day, for most of the experience, Abby is a remorseless fuck.

Ellie finds out she shot a pregnant woman and vomits and has a breakdown. Abby replies "good" when she goes to kill Dina.
yeah i just

don’t see the logic

fuck this game i’m waiting for cyberpunk grumble grumble
 

Powley

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I've just realised one of my biggest problems with Abby tbh; she doesn't react like Ellie does.

Ellie actually breaks down (multiple times) over the violence she commits. Abby? Not once. We never get anything close to any sort of remorse or doubt with her. TLOU2 tries very hard to make us sympathise but it just falls flat because at the end of the day, for most of the experience, Abby is a remorseless fuck.

Ellie finds out she shot a pregnant woman and vomits and has a breakdown. Abby replies "good" when she goes to kill Dina.

thats because abby is a shoehorned character.

id honestly rather see marlene return as the villian, we see her get shot, but we dont see her die
 
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