USSR vs Nazi Germany - which was worse

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GenericPlayer

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1933-45, since thats the time nazi germany was around and everything
I think a 1.5% population boost is quite nice, coupled with the abundant healthcare that was available during the 1930s. However, when living in towns running along the Volga river, famine was prevalent and lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and at the time agriculture was primarily handled manually with little automation involved.

This lack of automation, alongside the 'Kulak' social class failing to cooperate with Soviet authorities during the Kolkhoz program lead to further deaths in the famine.

No doubt, the political environment would be touchy at best, with Trotskyites being deported/detained for crimes against the state and conspiracy (Similar to that of the expelling/execution of Strasserists in Nazi Germany). But assuming that you are apolitical, a Marxist-Leninist, or just not openly advocating against the state, you wouldn't be arrested.

However, the war had also taken it's toll, killing millions more due to conscription laws, the Einzatztruppen and a plethora of other factors, meaning life would be pretty hellish in the USSR if you lived anywhere other than Siberia, Central Asia or the Far East.

Post War however, the USSR built up it's infrastructure at an astounding rate, and likely had one of the best living conditions in the world from 1952-1991.

E:

Also looking at @Husky 's post, I don't really see a reason for all the dumb ratings other than the use of the word 'cuck' tbh. Seems like you're just rating based on reputation rather than arguments, unless it really is about word choice.
 
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Husky

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i was mooching around youtube after watching an equal amount of soviet union/reich documentaries and ended up finding this:

although im not sure where they get their sources from, i doubt they'd lie about most things, as lets be honest everything mentioned in that video is pretty convincing considering stalins reputation


i wouldnt want to live in either of the two, but if i had to choose it'd probably be germany, probably because germany was a lot more composed in regards to the entire population, taking jews/gays/gypsies/disabled people out of it. everyone in the soviet union was under the threat of stalins regime, not just a select few. since im now a jew or gay or a gypsy or debatably disabled id rather live in the reich as a result

Actually in the Soviet Union the more common you were the better life was. According to documents released after the USSR collapse more people who were higher up like NKVD, KGB, politicians etc were the most likely to be killed. If you worked in a factory or on a farm it's very likely you'd live a regular life. Farmers got shit on from incompetent leadership and too much micromanagement which contributed to the great famine. As well as homosexuality being decriminilised by lenin, so there really wasn't much personal threat for those at the bottom. It was if you were higher up you had to worry about.

Most of the average persons problems in the USSR was just mainly down to incompetent leadership due to Stalin's great purges. And unlike Nazi Germany gulags weren't a death sentance, concentration camps were. Of the 15 million sent to gulags 2-3 million died. And you were only really there for 3-5 years. Yeah it isn't the best but I'd take a gulag over a concentration camp any day. And not all gulags were actually in Siberia, there was one just outside of Moscow, which is now a museum. But Granted yes, most of them were in Siberia, or at least most of te major one's.
 

metropaun

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both were pretty bad imo

but i'd rather live in nazi germany than in the ussr at the time (no bias intended)
 

tera

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only talking abouy ww2 era and years leading up to it.

imo, both are shit.

Nazi Germany would probably force you to conscript and fight a war all the way when you're at a certain age and you are a male. However, if you happen to be some important guy in the Reich, you'll probably have high living standards.... until of course the allies start dropping bombs constantly on the German cities and when you hear the sounds of Red Army advancing on you. If you're some average guy, you'll probably be working in the war economy and probably overworked in it.
If you're Jewish or not even as far as not being an ethnic German (or some Aryan bullshit) though lol good luck. If you're the opposition as well, good luck as well.

USSR at the same time however had general low living standards in majority of the area. Like Germany, forced conscription is a thing and thus boom you're off to fight a great patriotic war. To make matters worse, it doesnt matter if ur some high position or general guy, stalin will always look at you as a threat so the threat of being oof'd or gulag'd will always run through your mind. Lets not even talk about being an opposition here, since those dont even exist because they will be executed. And if you happen to live in the areas where Germany invades, the SS is surely enough going to fuck your ass ten times over. If youre a farmer as well, good luck trying to industrialise your area and not die of starvation

Both countries at the time were shit to live in because both are totalitarian countries, divulging in extreme left and right parties, you would certainly be executed for being different and not a conformist. Or if you dont go to war
However, I do think the majority of German citizens were more happy to live in Germany rather than the Soviet citizens living in the Soviet Union.

Id probably choose Nazi Germany over Soviet Union.
Personally, I would stay the hell away from these countries and preferably live in a country like.. shit theres literally no good modern country to live in during ww2 considering they all go to war with each other. Maybe USA.
 
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Husky

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you would certainly be executed for being different and not a conformist.
Not entirely true. You could be liberal or even anarchist in Russia, you weren't allowed to congregate with others like-minded but you were allowed to be it. For example Peter Kropotkins death was the last time the Russians allowed the congregation of Anarchists in the country to attend his funeral.

But if you had to choose Germany or USSR which would you pick? And why? I think it's quite clear which country I'd pick. And that isn't to say I like the USSR, it's just that it had better living conditions than Germany where I personally would be gassed to death for my sexual orientation. In Russia it was perfectly legal to be homosexual which was one of the first things Lenin did.
 

tera

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Not entirely true. You could be liberal or even anarchist in Russia, you weren't allowed to congregate with others like-minded but you were allowed to be it. For example Peter Kropotkins death was the last time the Russians allowed the congregation of Anarchists in the country to attend his funeral.

But if you had to choose Germany or USSR which would you pick? And why? I think it's quite clear which country I'd pick. And that isn't to say I like the USSR, it's just that it had better living conditions than Germany where I personally would be gassed to death for my sexual orientation. In Russia it was perfectly legal to be homosexual which was one of the first things Lenin did.

Alright, while I'll take your word for it. Chances still are I could be one of the unlucky farmers who won't be able to industrialize as according to collectivization. Gulag and purging is something that will be on my mind if I was some important guy or in the Communist party. Which is why I primarily wouldn't want to be in Germany.

Also I am not a homosexual and I'd be fine in living in Nazi Germany.

Big oof, I just read about Germany's persecution of Chinese people after China declared war on Germany due to 2nd Sino-Japanese war in which the Gestapo arrested Chinese Nationalists and Chinese Germans living in the Germans or deport them back to China where I'd probably get tenno heika banzaid by the Japs. I guess I would probably prefer living in Germany up to 1941 before I have to leave the country or I'll get arrested. So I guess I would prefer living up to Germany til 1941 (in which I'll probably make my escape somewhere) and then from 1941 - 1945, I would have to live in Soviet Union so that the chance of me getting arrested would be far slimmer than being in Germany post-1941 (virtually chinese people were literally nonexistant by then in Germany post-1942). Although, I think at the time I would probably be a Chinese nationalist because my ancestors were very much so uh and im a bit of right guy today. Big oof though cuz im living in a communist country which idk their views on nationalism.

Like I said, I'd stay the hell away from both of these countries and would rather live in Iceland over those two countries, if given the choice.
 
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Husky

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Alright, while I'll take your word for it. Chances are I could be one of the unlucky farmers who won't be able to industrialize as according to collectivization.
industrialisation is what the 5 year plan was, it was trotsky's idea to indsutrialise or the USSR woudl certianly colapse due to foreign imperialism as proved correct by the joint german brit and fench invasion of the USSR after it's founding as well as Lenin's book "Imperialism: The highest stage of capitalism"

Industrialisation was actually heavily funded and encouraged under the USSR. If you were a farmer you'd be given new mechanical equipment for free because it benefited russia if you harvested more food.

Gulag and purging is something that will be on my mind if I was some important guy or in the Communist party. Which is why I primarily wouldn't want to be in Germany.
The germans were no better, honestly. They often executed their own men for no reason, or just based on rumours of them being left wing or jewish relation. Look at the knight of the long knives for example.
 

tera

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industrialisation is what the 5 year plan was, it was trotsky's idea to indsutrialise or the USSR woudl certianly colapse due to foreign imperialism as proved correct by the joint german brit and fench invasion of the USSR after it's founding as well as Lenin's book "Imperialism: The highest stage of capitalism"

Industrialisation was actually heavily funded and encouraged under the USSR. If you were a farmer you'd be given new mechanical equipment for free because it benefited russia if you harvested more food.

Death toll of USSR's own 9 - 50 million people (including famine) says otherwise. (wikipedia under stalin regime page) Pretty sure funded industrialisation didn't really help

The germans were no better, honestly. They often executed their own men for no reason, or just based on rumours of them being left wing or jewish relation. Look at the knight of the long knives for example.

I should be alright then considering I probably would most likely lean towards right (chinese nationalism) and the simple fact is I don't look like a jew because I have an appearance of a Chinese.
 

Husky

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communism has killed more then facism
I see this, as a typical question coming from a person being hit by mass-media anti-communist propaganda, that is of course very common in any capitalist country. As a person also brainwashed since the first day on earth, I know all this propaganda and was convinced of it long time. So I know what you mean. Its I guess the “the mass-murdered people” of Stalin or Mao etc. .

But if you do your research, you will find, that most of the killed were finally killed due to capitalists wars or their influence. After the October revolution 1917 which had hardly any deaths at all, the real mass-murder began with the invasion of about 7 (?) western countries in Russia, called the “Entente” - this name Entente has been used by historians also for others in order to provide some confusion about this widly censored invasion and war against the young Soviet Russia. The term “Soviet”, which is here regarded as simply something bad, actualy means worker councils, i.e. a democratic institution where the people bring in their wants and opinions about politics.

Since the war against the young USSR was not successful, they changed their strategy to financing and organizing a civil war in the Soviet Union with old Tzarists, capitalists, rich farmers or simply dumb mercenaries. They burned down fields of the socialist farms, their machinery and killed lifestock and people, and all these deaths of war and hunger was - of course - result of the “revolution”, result of “communism”, the “mass-murderer Stalin”, who defended the first state of workers and farmers, which because of this had the hammer and sicle in their national emblem. The communists gave the land (of Feudalists and rich big farmers) to the workers who worked on their farms under normally sclave-like conditions, gave them education, self-ruled big (collective) farms with modern land machinery, where they had free housing, food, healthcare, holidays, insurances, education - the typical measures taken in all socialist countries.

Sure, Stalin was not a dumb man, he did know, if they will not develop from a mainly acricultural land to a modern high-tech nation, they will be killed sooner or later by the capitalist countries, namely the capitalist in Germany, who already had a problem with the German people’s socialist revolution in 1918, when workers wanted to stop capitalist wars by ending capitalism.

So the German capitalists founded the “Antibolshevist fund of the German industry” in 1919, hired hungry soldiers to kill all the socialist movement in whole Germany - about 150 bigger towns, socialist Bavaria and fighting the people in the Ruhr region till 1923 with their private army, called “Freikorps”.

This military war against their own people has been complemented by founding NAZI propaganda and NAZI parties like the “Deutsche Arbeiter Partei” DAP, since Feb.1920 renamed to NS-DAP, National-Socialist-DAP. Even a German Socialist Party (DSP) has been founded by the capitalists, namely on initiative of Dr. Paul Tafel, a board member of the Bavarian Industrialist association, who used his nationalist foreworker, Anton Drexler and some railway workers of him and a Journalist in his noble THULE Society with an faked “worker association” who did meet in the Munich Luxuary Hotel Vier Jahrezeiten. This fake-Socialist and fake Worker party (also the party program has been written by Dr.Paul Tafel) obviously should create confusion with real Socialists and give the people a fake version of what they want, which however is under their control. Of course Hitler’s main goal was anti-bolshevism, which means anti-socialism - despite having Socialism in their name! The first NAZI concentration camps were not filled by jews, but were filled with communists. Some proof for this with original German souces can be found in German language here:

Wie Hitler von der Deutschen Wirtschaft an die Macht gebracht wurde.

Regarding “mass-murderer Stalin” I needed to write more, but can not today. So I suggest read what he did write itself, in order to learn what - especially marx-related views - was in his mind. May be http://www.marxists.org has all of his written speeches and papers to any issue and time. Reading a persons books is a good way to understand their thinking and personality. At Books - The Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party there is normally no-where found books about him - even from an former Stalin enemy. Sure, Stalin did know that Hitler has been created to crash down Russia in a war and he had to prepare his country for a war, in opposite to a lucky free people country, who enjoy consumption and their life without exploiters and foreign and internal enemies. Possibly, I do not know it, if he really did make some decisions in these deathly times, where even good communists were killed or did die because of this finally. He had to be a hard man for hard decisions. In war times also capitalists countries switch to the so-called “war communism” (as used in Britain) where the government is controlling the whole country to be fit for war.

In order to come back to your initial question: 1. Finally the “deaths of communism”

are the same persons as “the deaths of capitalsism” - or in Russia in addition even the old Tzarists and its exploiting establishment. It was a struggle between communism and capitalism/feudalism. The deaths are from both sides. And 2. : Fascim is a child of capitalism and the rescue mode of capitalism, in case the people tend to Socialism - as 1918 in Germany, in Hungary, later in Spain or the people’s front in France, which led to the intentional defeat of the French army generals during the NAZI attack on France. They wanted and needed the NAZIs to save their economic power. The real background about the BLITZKRIEG so far. There are endless stories behind the history they tell us in mass-media. Any lies of war propaganda which were used to make the wars, later become “history” which is forging our minds and opinions, our basic view of the world. I do not know if the book “The people’s history of the world” of an author’s name (Chris Harman?) I forgot, is a good book, that tell’s it all. But I wanted to give you the idea of a totally different view of the world and history is there or could be written, if there were financial power behind it - which of course is not the case. The powers behind US/NATO governments are not interested in democracy, but money in their wars, killings, fake up-rises etc. just watch some samples how they did it: Economic Hitmen-Ausschnitt Iran-Umsturz: ZGA - Bekenntnisse eines Wirtschaftskillers Teil 1 (Deutsche Untertitel) or

how they organize their fake-revolutions, “up-rises” or faked “civil wars”:

They know how to attract and fool young and nice youth and make it a fashion action - this is better shown here:(Ivan Marovic Fashion sexy revolutions paid by USA)

For learning how they create terrorists and terror attacks see: title should be "Galdio the NATO's secret NAZI army" Gladio Revisited

Ukraine US-FAscists stopping free speech even in parliament ! Ukrainian Communist Party Leader Gets Attaked Svoboda Thugs for Speeking the Truth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...

Oh, I forgot your last question: “How many people Che Guevara had killed?” To make it shot: He did not kill “people” at all. He killed US-paid mercenaries or soldiers hired by the dictators or rulers of South-American countries, which were set up by USA. He was and could stay a minister in Cuba and have a happy life as loved by all Cubans, but did decide to stop the terrible conditions in South-America by offering his medical and rebel knowledge and finally his life. Search for “Iran-contra affair” and “Oliver North” to find one of the many examples how USA financed (with drugs!) mercenary troops that fight for US profits in South-America or see how US companies control governments and kill presidents not only there.
Please. Tell me more.
[doublepost=1522933828][/doublepost]
Death toll of USSR's own 9 - 50 million people (including famine) says otherwise (wikipedia under stalin regime page)
Soviet Union Death Toll
Many historians have suggested that Stalin was responsible for death total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, Gulag camps, deportations and other causes. Simon Sebag Montefiore suggested that Stalin was ultimately responsible for the deaths of between 20 and 25 million people
:thonking:

I should be alright then considering I probably would most likely lean towards right (chinese nationalism) and the simple fact is I don't look like a jew because I have an appearance of a Chinese.
You'd still be treated as a second class citizen. You'd pretty much have to worship germans or even anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes. They were treated like gods in Nazi Germany.
 
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tera

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Please. Tell me more.
[doublepost=1522933828][/doublepost]

:thonking:


You'd still be treated as a second class citizen. You'd pretty much have to worship germans or even anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes. They were treated like gods in Nazi Germany.


sigh.

Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely. Record-keeping of the executions of political prisoners and ethnic minorities are regarded as neither reliable nor complete.[1] Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 3 million[2][3][4] to nearly 9 million,[5] not including those who died in famines, and the total number of Stalin's victims is between 9[6] and 50[7] million.
-wikipedia

I gave a wider range to make it more subjective.

I rather be a second class citizen than be a poor farmer or a guy stuck in a gulag. Again, which is why I said, both countries are shit at the time.
 

Husky

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sigh.

Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely. Record-keeping of the executions of political prisoners and ethnic minorities are regarded as neither reliable nor complete.[1] Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 3 million[2][3][4] to nearly 9 million,[5] not including those who died in famines, and the total number of Stalin's victims is between 9[6] and 50[7] million.
-wikipedia

I even give a wider range to make it more subjective.

I rather be a second class citizen than be a poor farmer or a guy stuck in a gulag. Again, which is why I said, both countries are shit at the time.
So I had a look at the sources they referenced for these numbers
Snyder, Timothy (27 January 2011). "Hitler vs. Stalin: Who Was Worse?". The New York Review of Books. Retrieved 13 October 2017. " The total number of noncombatants killed by the Germans—about 11 million—is roughly what we had thought. The total number of civilians killed by the Soviets, however, is considerably less than we had believed. We know now that the Germans killed more people than the Soviets did . . . All in all, the Germans deliberately killed about 11 million noncombatants, a figure that rises to more than 12 million if foreseeable deaths from deportation, hunger, and sentences in concentration camps are included. For the Soviets during the Stalin period, the analogous figures are approximately six million and nine million. These figures are of course subject to revision, but it is very unlikely that the consensus will change again as radically as it has since the opening of Eastern European archives in the 1990s.
#6

Stalin, unlike Hitler, did not pay the price of public exposure. The total tally of his victims can never be exactly calculated; but it is unlikely to be much below 50 millions.
And during the 1930's the population of Russia was 180 million. This figures suggests that the population would have had to have gone down to AT LEAST 130 million. That's fucking ridiculous.


I think just from reading the two analysis you can determine which is much more reliable of a source.
 

Postal

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Please. Tell me more.
[doublepost=1522933828][/doublepost]

:thonking:


You'd still be treated as a second class citizen. You'd pretty much have to worship germans or even anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes. They were treated like gods in Nazi Germany.

yes because studying and knowing history as my gsce about communism suddently makes me brainwashed by "mainstream media"
 
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Husky

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yes because studying and knowing history as my gsce about communism suddently makes me brainwashed by "mass media"
Ah yes, GCSE's surpass proffessionals who have dug through the soviet archives as well as the germans to come to accurate conclusions. I'm sure your GCSE's are much more accurate.
 

tera

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So I had a look at the sources they referenced for these numbers
#6


And during the 1930's the population of Russia was 180 million. This figures suggests that the population would have had to have gone down to AT LEAST 130 million. That's fucking ridiculous.


I think just from reading the two analysis you can determine which is much more reliable of a source.
i just took it from wikipedia since i cant be bothered to click the next link to accurately range soviet union's death toll.
You can simply just average it out and it would have been around 20-30 million anyways
 

Postal

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Ah yes, GCSE's surpass proffessionals who have dug through the soviet archives as well as the germans to come to accurate conclusions. I'm sure your GCSE's are much more accurate.

i wouldn't of replied but you're throwing conspiracy theories at me
 

Husky

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i just took it from wikipedia since i cant be bothered to click the next link to accurately range soviet union's death toll.
You can simply just average it out and it would have been around 20-30 million anyways which is still a high number.
Well not really. Considering the 50 million figure is complete bullshit. I trust the original source because he's taking into account the opposing side of the Germans. Encouraging others to prove him wrong and saying the figures are up for revision, he also states how he came to those conclusions. I trust his figure much more than the 50 million one as the 50 million one is historically un-reasonable as well as has no mathmatical backing, or historical.
i wouldn't of replied but you're throwing conspiracy theories at me
I'm not. The soviet archipelligo was opened in 1991 during the collapse. Much of the information we used to come to conclusions about the Soviets was German accounts, which were incredibly bias and down right wrong. The Germans claimed the soviets won through superior numbers and had insufficiant equipment, they won through a lot more than that and had more mosin nagants than they did soldiers, then you have to consider pistols, SVT's PPSH's, tanks, plane's, Maxim guns, flag-bearers, political officers, sailors and so on.

The book I'm referencing was published in 2011. The other one which gave 50 million was published in 1998. I can determine from those dates which one would have had more access to the soviet archipelligo and which one had more properly evaluated it. And even with this information available most of the information still spread around is from German accounts due to the precident they have.