Serious Script Economy is not my concern

[alex]

could always get rid of s2k for a combat system that supports text

Unironically HUD pings would be a better solution than allowing metagaming.

Edit: I say this as the person that removed waypoints from CPs

 

[avralwobniar]

Will never happen with this amount of players

It's impossible to moderate with 50 players

yeah, but it'd be text based so there wouldn't be complaints about an unfair advantage from voice chat

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

So we're admitting that S2K is going to worsen because there is now no way to call out targets/locations in the most realistic fashion without standing still and frantically typing "r/ REBLE ELFTT" before they get shot, right?

Because there's a reason Cops and OTA had exceptions on using voice for sweeps and such from before I ever joined LP and why we gave rebels that right during S2K too.

part of the emphasis of moving away from "winning S2K" is not paying attention to complaints that are rooted in people wanting to win S2K

you dont need perfect callouts

 

[Ond]

yeah, but it'd be text based so there wouldn't be complaints about an unfair advantage from voice chat

Yeah instead you'd be replacing with with walls of text from 20 different people trying to kill each other at the same time

How do you moderate a good outcome with that?

Much easier, as ark said, to start incentivizing being okay with """"losing"""" a goofy s2k fight that has no tangible result from winning anyways and dewhitelisting/getting rid of those who can't adjust and continuously act sourly

 

[Rabid]

But a ban won't remotely discourage the bad eggs from using Discord mid-firefight anyway when people not typing is the norm because its S2K. You literally cannot ban people for not typing in S2K, that's obscenely daft.

So then the people who refuse to use it fearing a ban will now be be at a massive disadvantage.

 

[alex]

But a ban won't remotely discourage the bad eggs from using Discord mid-firefight anyway when people not typing is the norm because its S2K. You literally cannot ban people for not typing in S2K, that's obscenely daft.

So then the people who refuse to use it fearing a ban will now be be at a massive disadvantage.

You most definitely can ban people for obviously changing their actions based on information they had no way of knowing.

 

[Deleted member 61]

Let's not turn this into a useless discussion about S2K vs. S2RP.

I don't think a radical change that like helps anyone and only misdirects attention that is better placed on focusing on storylines, balancing issues and more important administrative issues.

The best that can be done with Discord is making the personal decision to not use it. If everybody makes the same sacrifice of effectiveness to keep everything in-character and on server as possible, it becomes a better community and everybody gets put back on an equal playing field.

 

[Rabid]

You most definitely can ban people for obviously changing their actions based on information they had no way of knowing.

There've been times - many - where I, as a person who has never used Discord in years, have happened to realise something like we've left a flank exposed and gotten around behind people coming to ambush us by chance. I've seen god knows how many examples of that by other people I know don't use Discord either.

I would legitimately get banned under your rule change depending on how unlucky I was because it'd take no time to accuse me of metagaming or being in voice.

 

[alex]

There've been times - many - where I, as a person who has never used Discord in years, have happened to realise something like we've left a flank exposed and gotten around behind people by chance. I've seen god knows how many examples of that by other people I know don't use Discord either.

I would legitimately get banned under your rule change depending on how unlucky I was because it'd take no time to accuse me of metagaming or being in voice.

I think you're trying to focus on certain parts of this debate because it's much easier for you to argue it but so be it.

It's very easy to push that any/every instance of an action that didn't have communication would result in punishment, which is not at all what I said. You can clearly tell when players are communicating in Discord because they're not talking at all to each other whilst their actions are working together.

You would not legitimately get banned under my rule depending on how lucky you are.

 

[Rabid]

It's very easy to push that any/every instance of an action that didn't have communication would result in punishment, which is not at all what I said. You can clearly tell when players are communicating in Discord because they're not talking at all to each other whilst their actions are working together.

Fair enough then, yeah. I'll concede that.

 

[alex]

Fair enough then, yeah. I'll concede that.

My point really is, players aren't banned based on a single suspicion even when accused of cheating with minor video proof. Metagaming isn't determined by a single action that was conveniently in their favour; you'd determine it from how they're behaving in general and if they're actually roleplaying.

Of course there will be cases where you know or can see that players are in a Discord server relaying information and acting on it but that doesn't need to be the only way to issue a ban. Just as with most other rules, use multiple factors to determine whether a player is or may be metagaming.

 

[Chiptune]

I will say, moderating P2L (Play 2 Lose, not sure why people here call it "Shoot 2 RP" that doesn't even make sense as there is usually no shooting involved) is possible and pretty easy with staff experienced in moderating it. It does require a more "no-bullshit" approach and staff that knows how to spot LOOC whiners and argumentative idiots that derail the action to desperately win, but I've been mostly playing on servers with P2L enabled and it usually works really fine. The few occasional times where it doesn't are, in my opinion, worth it considering how much RP that opens up.

However. This is a big server, yes. That shouldn't be an issue with enough staff members withsufficient experience in moderating P2L. The issue is the theme of this server, it's ridiculously conflict-heavy. They'd have to moderate all the time, always. This is why P2L servers usually use events, and are servers where people don't usually fight outside of said events. Multiple staff can moderate one event and handle all the conflict, but if a fight happens off-event, best case scenario you call a staff member that comes over, worst case scenario no one is available so the players auto-moderate.

And let me say this outright, this isn't 2015 anymore. I mostly play on communities where people CAN self-moderate very efficiently, but these are communities with pretty much only veteran roleplayers. Would this work on such a huge community where people aren't used to it and so fearful of auto-moderation and LOOC disputes that may ensue? Maybe, who knows.

My proposed compromise that I spoke to Numbers about was one of those scripts that force you into a "downed" state once you are killed, where you can only crawl, type and manually decide to fully die (usually NLR of course). What would that do? Well, it would make MedRP on the field accessible, you'd have to drag people to safety and actually RP to bring them back up. People would finally do some PainRP as well and roleplay their injuries. Lastly? I have not once roleplayed with a rebel. That's insane to me.

I'd much rather they take the time to /me to finish me off, because that's better than a magdump and watching my body fly off from a vortbeam. It would also make captures easier if one desires to be captured, but of course that could remain a choice, and have a set limit to avoid it happening too frequently.

 

[avralwobniar]

I will say, moderating P2L (Play 2 Lose, not sure why people here call it "Shoot 2 RP" that doesn't even make sense as there is usually no shooting involved) is possible and pretty easy with staff experienced in moderating it. It does require a more "no-bullshit" approach and staff that knows how to spot LOOC whiners and argumentative idiots that derail the action to desperately win, but I've been mostly playing on servers with P2L enabled and it usually works really fine. The few occasional times where it doesn't are, in my opinion, worth it considering how much RP that opens up.

However. This is a big server, yes. That shouldn't be an issue with enough staff members withsufficient experience in moderating P2L. The issue is the theme of this server, it's ridiculously conflict-heavy. They'd have to moderate all the time, always. This is why P2L servers usually use events, and are servers where people don't usually fight outside of said events. Multiple staff can moderate one event and handle all the conflict, but if a fight happens off-event, best case scenario you call a staff member that comes over, worst case scenario no one is available so the players auto-moderate.

And let me say this outright, this isn't 2015 anymore. I mostly play on communities where people CAN self-moderate very efficiently, but these are communities with pretty much only veteran roleplayers. Would this work on such a huge community where people aren't used to it and so fearful of auto-moderation and LOOC disputes that may ensue? Maybe, who knows.

My proposed compromise that I spoke to Numbers about was one of those scripts that force you into a "downed" state once you are killed, where you can only crawl, type and manually decide to fully die (usually NLR of course). What would that do? Well, it would make MedRP on the field accessible, you'd have to drag people to safety and actually RP to bring them back up. People would finally do some PainRP as well and roleplay their injuries. Lastly? I have not once roleplayed with a rebel. That's insane to me.

I'd much rather they take the time to /me to finish me off, because that's better than a magdump and watching my body fly off from a vortbeam. It would also make captures easier if one desires to be captured, but of course that could remain a choice, and have a set limit to avoid it happening too frequently.

I was just messing about going to s2rp, that shit will never work

 

[Komchan]

VC Bans? I'm in favour of them.

However, sometimes on Discords/OOC people who are off need to head on for a rp reason, or maybe they're involved in something/stuff they WOULD know about IC but don't as they're busy doing something else, eg a game or taking a bit of a break. Communication between everyone in IC tends to be quite difficult, due to timezones/irl stuff simply occurring which makes it annoyingly difficult.

The 'oh just add a note' thing isn't really a good method, as it might easily just be destroyed by someone taking the mick, disappear due to unforeseen circumstances, etc etc etc. Not only that, sometimes you move base, or the 'main rp location' moves to somewhere else, radio frequencies changed and you don't know it has, so you just assume everyone's afk or in an event you're not invited to.

Sometimes more 'ooc things' need to be allowed if only for keeping people 'in the know'/not believe the server's an empty deathhole. Without the forums, I doubt most people would still be on neb, the roleplay documents section provides useful information etc.

I know that I've been on the server, today, for example, spending some time wandering aimlessly with some others, trying to find where everyone else went, thinking the frequency had changed (It hadn't??? it was a psy-op i think). Eventually, someone logged onto the server and spoke on the radio and we spoke. While discord wasn't involved, I was on the verge of leaving and heading back on the day after, as I was tired lol/too many memories of wandering around aimlessly, in search of people on city hl2rp.

(First time it's happened so far, don't blame anyone for the wandering thing, but more of something 'that happened' if that makes sense.)



Maybe a good 'inbetween' is to require some staff to be in discords that are used to transfer any information that is IC, otherwise it's classified as Metagame and bannable.

random 1am rambles

 

[alex]

However, sometimes on Discords/OOC people who are off need to head on for a rp reason, or maybe they're involved in something/stuff they WOULD know about IC but don't as they're busy doing something else, eg a game or taking a bit of a break. Communication between everyone in IC tends to be quite difficult, due to timezones/irl stuff simply occurring which makes it annoyingly difficult.

That's simple to address, you get informed of the information when someone is around to roleplay and have that conversation with you.

Sometimes more 'ooc things' need to be allowed if only for keeping people 'in the know'/not believe the server's an empty deathhole. Without the forums, I doubt most people would still be on neb, the roleplay documents section provides useful information etc.

It's not a debate of removing ooc things that have impact on the server, it's the complete metagame of it. Nobody is arguing that roleplay documents shouldn't exist.

Maybe a good 'inbetween' is to require some staff to be in discords that are used to transfer any information that is IC, otherwise it's classified as Metagame and bannable.

Nah I think it's much better to just deem that information as metagame. If anything, having Discord's with information or messaging people the information is removing roleplay from the server and making it so they don't even need to join to keep up to date with current events.

 

[avralwobniar]

That's simple to address, you get informed of the information when someone is around to roleplay and have that conversation with you.


It's not a debate of removing ooc things that have impact on the server, it's the complete metagame of it. Nobody is arguing that roleplay documents shouldn't exist.


Nah I think it's much better to just deem that information as metagame. If anything, having Discord's with information or messaging people the information is removing roleplay from the server and making it so they don't even need to join to keep up to date with current events.

there should never have been a scoreboard for non-staff characters

 

[Cindy]

Will never happen with this amount of players

It's impossible to moderate with 50 players

Stressful, sure, you’re managing a lot of people. Impossible? No. There are ways of structuring S2RP on a larger scale to make it easier to manage and more fulfilling to participate in.

 

[Cindy]

Yeah instead you'd be replacing with with walls of text from 20 different people trying to kill each other at the same time

How do you moderate a good outcome with that?

Much easier, as ark said, to start incentivizing being okay with """"losing"""" a goofy s2k fight that has no tangible result from winning anyways and dewhitelisting/getting rid of those who can't adjust and continuously act sourly

Not that I don’t agree with this, just that I think S2RP shouldn’t be discounted.

 

[Ond]

Stressful, sure, you’re managing a lot of people. Impossible? No. There are ways of structuring S2RP on a larger scale to make it easier to manage and more fulfilling to participate in.

sorry I’ll say it differently

Its near impossible with the large room temperature IQ majority we have

 

['77 East]

can't in good faith say large scale S2RP is possible, especially since we still have people clamoring for scripts & the 'not one script lost' mentality

a good chunk of these people have seniority too.